Abortion is a tricky subject, and I generally avoid it here. I have an enormous amount of sympathy for those on both sides of the debate, but I know that many people cannot understand the perspective opposite their own (and, frankly, simply aren’t sufficiently educated in the realm of medical ethics), so I’m wary of such discussions ending badly here. That said, I just watched a brief video on the topic of how to best punish women who have abortions, were abortion illegal, that I found enormously interesting:
I don’t appreciate the tone of the narrator, and I get the sense that the point of this was to make pro-lifers look silly. But, in fact, I was really impressed with these dedicated veterans of disgusting-sign-waving protesting. It is compassion for fetuses that motivates them to do what they do, and they generally display equal compassion in saying that there should be no punishment for women who have illegal abortions. It’s telling that these same women would surely not argue that there should be no punishment for murder; they put abortion far, far below murder in severity of crime.
These interview subjects, through the filter of this filmmaker, cannot be said to represent the views of all people who would outlaw abortion. But I think it’s a good window into the minds of at least a few abortion protesters, and certainly raises a basic question that should be asked of all politicians who favor making abortion illegal.
I dunno, in my experience as a campaign worker, most of the fetus people were smug dicks: outpourings of compassion for anything or anyone were not exactly high on their list. They didn’t give a flying crap if little kids were upset or disturbed by the image either: in fact, the prospect of nightmares was something that filled them with glee. People act very differently on camera than they do in real life.
Yeah, those folks came off pretty well. The interviewer, not so much.
I would be shocked if that was anywhere close to representative of active protesters. I’d love to get him to come film the assholes outside of the Planned Parent clinic on 16th St. in DC. I went to physical therapy 3x a week for months in an office right next door to the clinic, and walked through these people on a regular basis. Nevermind the posters, the people themselves were amazingly hateful and obscene. At least one of them suggested the electric chair for a woman walking in. I’ve a hard time believing that compassion for anything was a motivating force for them. Truly vile people.
I’ve seen a handful of protests, and virtually everyone behaved just like the people in that video. And I wasn’t surprised at all by their responses regarding criminal sanctions for women. I don’t know anyone abortion opponents (myself included) who favor punishing the women who obtain illegal abortions.
Rather, if Roe is someday overturned, and abortion is made illegal in some states, the punishment would be for the doctors that perform them. People who are anti-abortion generally view women who get them as victims, not criminals.
I.Publius,
I’m interested in understanding the moral basis for your advocating no punishment of women who have abortions. Is it that you see an important difference in, for example, women who elect abortions and women who commit infanticide? Would you support punishment of women who kill their babies after they’re born? Would there be a difference between women who perform the abortions themselves and those who have physicians perform them?
I apologize for my awkward wording of these questions. Somehow, I feel dirty for even writing “women who kill their babies”, because I know it’s so much more complicated than that. But, I want to understand how people of good faith make these distinctions.
Harry, the question is who does the killing. Here’s how I think the criminal code should apply, in a few examples:
1 – Mother kills infant baby the day after she’s born. Mother committed murder.
2 – Doctor kills infant baby a minute after she’s born. Doctor committed murder.
3 – Doctor kills infant baby a minute before she’s born. Doctor committed murder.
4 – Drunk husband beats pregnant wife due to give birth the next day. Baby dies (mother doesn’t die). Husband committed murder.
I value the child equally in all four instances. I can’t get anyone to draw a firm line for me and say “HERE is where the child no longer deserves the same human rights as everyone else.” By firm line, I mean a point between conception and birth.
Without that firm line, I can’t condone the killing of an innocent person. From a legal standpoint, I believe that any state that passes a post-Roe law outlawing abortion will have to make other amendments to their criminal code. Specifically, they would have to make an exception in their murder-for-hire statute, since any woman who hired a doctor to kill her unborn baby would be guilty of murder under current law.
I don’t have a problem with such an amendment, because, like I said before, nearly everyone I’ve ever spoken to who opposes abortion views the women as victims, not criminals. Any woman who performs an abortion on herself needs lots and lots of love and care. No, she doesn’t deserve criminal sanctions.
Thanks for elaborating on your views. With your reference to changes in the murder-for-hire statute, you somewhat anticipate my next question. What about when a mother of a day-old infant pays her boyfriend to kill the baby?
Clearly, in your view (and mine), the boyfriend committed murder, but what about the mother? Does she get off? If not, what is it that differentiates the situation from the abortion?
By treating women as “victims”, doesn’t that minimize their capacity to think rationally and distinguish right from wrong?
That’s a really good point, and a fair question, re: the mother who pays for her day-old baby’s murder.
I think the person’s state of mind is important, and it’s a critical element for virtually any criminal conviction. In the case of murder, the necessary state of mind is malice. I think a reasonable juror would believe that a woman who kills (or conspires to kill) her day-old infant has malice in her heart, and is guilty of murder. That’s pretty easy. I don’t think the same is true for a woman who finds a doctor to kill her unborn baby.
None of this is black and white, of course. What about a woman who gets her boyfriend to help her perform a gnarly abortion a week before she’s due to deliver? In that case — even under current law, I’d argue — she could be indicted for murder, and it’s not hard to imagine a jury convicting her.
Now… is there malice on the part of a doctor who performs an illegal abortion? Probably not. I’d certainly never try to argue that there is. But if a state (say, Kansas) outlaws abortion, they’ll craft a statute that avoids calling it murder, but makes it a felony of some sort for a doctor to perform abortions. That’s my guess, anyway.