Waldo Jaquith (JAKE-with) is an open government technologist who lives near Charlottesville, VA, USA. more »
View more posts
18 replies on “Gov’t: Eavesdropping prevented attack.”
Hopefully, we won’t see a headline that says, “Eavesdropping Ensures a Republican Majority”
Wait. I thought we killed a bunny every time we talked about these programs. No?
If the court ruling really did get in the way of spying on these terrorists, wasn’t it irresponsible of the administration to play politics with the FISA revision in order to put the Democrats in an awkward position and expand their own powers further? Shouldn’t they have just gone for a quick fix that would get them going again right away, rather than waiting for months to make it a dire emergency with no time to pay attention to details?
Excellent points, both MB and KC.
Sigh. After half a decade of not being told the truth about anything. After Colin Powell’s “moment…” After every assurance of the Bush administration being a major stretch of the truth or outright fabrication… After a foreign policy being formulated out of cynicism and wishful thinking rather than facts… After every public statement contradicting what is happening on the ground… After massive terror plots turning out to me a little more than a homeless drifter off his meds…after Abu Ghraib, after Gitmo, after Tilman… after… after… after…
This is more of the same. I would bet good money that this is just a lame attempt at portraying the administration’s pro-torture and anti-liberty policies in a positive light. An attempt that ignores the fact that even if this was a victory of eavesdropping, that it is a drop in the bucket of a foreign policy approach that makes us less safe every single day… a foreign policy the terrorists can really get behind. An attempt that ignores the fact that the very tools that supposedly help in the war on terror were crafted in a way that they could be used against the American People.
I would bet good money that this is really smoke and mirrors… that these guys were caught primarily through the efforts of foreign governments through means that did not threaten the liberty of law-abiding citizens, or that these guys are another Lackawanna Six, people caught up in some nasty rhetoric or friends with the wrong people and who pose no threat themselves.
Sorry for the rant. Obviously, this story hit a nerve.
You guys sound an awful lot like Dem. House Whip James Clyburn who was foolish (or honest?) enough to admit that if the surge worked it would be “a real problem for us.”
How ’bout joinin’ the team and gettin’ on board for the big win? :) Or I guess you could continue your relentless quest for grasping at political power at the expense of your country’s, and its peoples’, interests.
I know most of the people here have gotta be embarrassed by the MoveOn ad calling Gen. Petraeus a traitor. It sucks when the Hsu’s on the other foot, eh?
Even if we take at face value the administration’s claim in this matter (which is quite a leap of logic), I’m simply not convinced that it’s worthwhile.
If we all had video cameras installed in our homes, monitored by the police, I’m guessing a lot of people would have their lives saved. But I’m also quite certain that most of us can agree that’s a terrible privacy tradeoff that very few people would be willing to make.
Why should ‘most people here’ be embarrassed by an ad placed in a newspaper by MoveOn? Are you assuming that ‘most people here’ are somehow affiliated with MoveOn?
Or I guess you could continue your relentless quest for grasping at political power at the expense of your country’s, and its peoples’, interests.
It’s funny that you argue that we’re just grasping at straws for political interests when in pages of arguments on this blog, you’ve yet to give a solid argument as to why opposing these programs on the basis that it gives the government undue powers isn’t sound. You may still think it’s wrong, but to say it’s just “grasping at political power” is unfounded and disrespectful.
This news, should you choose to accept it, really changes very little in this debate.
I just keep messing up the formatting of my posts.
That first paragraph is a quote from JS’s post. Sorry about that.
@ Ben:
Facts remain that the US hasn’t been hit with a major terrorist attack since 9/11. Someone’s doing something right. I understand a lot of my friends on the left chalk it to luck or happenstance. I prefer to think of it as the benefits of a tougher policy, including eavesdropping on overseas phone calls w/ known terrorists.
I still can’t figure our what civil liberties we’ve lost. Can you? It’s not even a clever bumper sticker to those disposed to hate Republicans, but “Bush Lied Thousands Died” appears to be the rallying cry of millions of, well, morons. No doubt they represent the same 30% or so of the Democratic Party that believe Bush & Cheney, for mysterious reasons shrouded in an inpenetrable fog, planned/had advance knowledge of/let happen 9/11.
I still can’t figure our what civil liberties we’ve lost.
[ . . .]
No doubt they represent the same 30% or so of the Democratic Party that believe Bush & Cheney, for mysterious reasons shrouded in an inpenetrable fog, planned/had advance knowledge of/let happen 9/11.
So now I can I call JS a lying imbecile without the concern trolls getting all het up? Seriously, what does this troll add to the conversation that lets him post things like this and still be treated as a member of civil society?
Facts remain that the US hasn’t been hit with a major terrorist attack since 9/11. Someone’s doing something right.
I have some anti-lion spray I’ll sell you. Just squirt a little on each day and you won’t be mauled by any lions.
I still can’t figure our what civil liberties we’ve lost.
Well of course you can’t – you cued into the authoritarian line long ago. If you need civil liberties, the Decider will give you some.
But never mind that,why are we still getting videos from Mr. September 11, Osama Bin Laden? Seems like $500 billion would get his head on a stick.
I still can’t figure our what civil liberties we’ve lost.
Well, aside from the fact that I believe there should be some minimal constitutional right to privacy, it’s actually not hard to find rights enumerated in the constitution that are being tread upon.
I’d say two we’ve lost are the right of people to “be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures,” as well as “No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law,” and “No State shall … deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” That’s the Fourth, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution. Granted, the latter two haven’t yet affected me personally, and probably won’t, but that doesn’t mean they should be ignored.
Furthermore, I’m uncomfortable that the system of surveillance that we’ve arrived at is basically unchecked by any of the normal balance of powers or oversight of any kind, which could very well lead to all sorts of government shenanigans, and we’d have no way of knowing. As I’ve said in the past, it’s not been 50 years since Watergate, and yet everyone thinks it’s a great idea to give the president the power to eavesdrop anyone, anywhere, without any oversight or accountability. I’m not accusing Bush of doing this, I’m just saying that if he or anyone who comes after him did do it, we simply wouldn’t know, and that’s not a power I think a single branch of the government should ever have.
Also, as Waldo pointed out, this:
Facts remain that the US hasn’t been hit with a major terrorist attack since 9/11.
Does not imply this:
Someone’s doing something right.
This is magical thinking, not logic.
Oops, never mind. What a surprise! The administration lying for political purposes. The real surprise is that McConnell admitted it.
Hopefully, we won’t see a headline that says, “Eavesdropping Ensures a Republican Majority”
Wait. I thought we killed a bunny every time we talked about these programs. No?
If the court ruling really did get in the way of spying on these terrorists, wasn’t it irresponsible of the administration to play politics with the FISA revision in order to put the Democrats in an awkward position and expand their own powers further? Shouldn’t they have just gone for a quick fix that would get them going again right away, rather than waiting for months to make it a dire emergency with no time to pay attention to details?
Excellent points, both MB and KC.
Sigh. After half a decade of not being told the truth about anything. After Colin Powell’s “moment…” After every assurance of the Bush administration being a major stretch of the truth or outright fabrication… After a foreign policy being formulated out of cynicism and wishful thinking rather than facts… After every public statement contradicting what is happening on the ground… After massive terror plots turning out to me a little more than a homeless drifter off his meds…after Abu Ghraib, after Gitmo, after Tilman… after… after… after…
This is more of the same. I would bet good money that this is just a lame attempt at portraying the administration’s pro-torture and anti-liberty policies in a positive light. An attempt that ignores the fact that even if this was a victory of eavesdropping, that it is a drop in the bucket of a foreign policy approach that makes us less safe every single day… a foreign policy the terrorists can really get behind. An attempt that ignores the fact that the very tools that supposedly help in the war on terror were crafted in a way that they could be used against the American People.
I would bet good money that this is really smoke and mirrors… that these guys were caught primarily through the efforts of foreign governments through means that did not threaten the liberty of law-abiding citizens, or that these guys are another Lackawanna Six, people caught up in some nasty rhetoric or friends with the wrong people and who pose no threat themselves.
Sorry for the rant. Obviously, this story hit a nerve.
You guys sound an awful lot like Dem. House Whip James Clyburn who was foolish (or honest?) enough to admit that if the surge worked it would be “a real problem for us.”
How ’bout joinin’ the team and gettin’ on board for the big win? :) Or I guess you could continue your relentless quest for grasping at political power at the expense of your country’s, and its peoples’, interests.
I know most of the people here have gotta be embarrassed by the MoveOn ad calling Gen. Petraeus a traitor. It sucks when the Hsu’s on the other foot, eh?
Even if we take at face value the administration’s claim in this matter (which is quite a leap of logic), I’m simply not convinced that it’s worthwhile.
If we all had video cameras installed in our homes, monitored by the police, I’m guessing a lot of people would have their lives saved. But I’m also quite certain that most of us can agree that’s a terrible privacy tradeoff that very few people would be willing to make.
Why should ‘most people here’ be embarrassed by an ad placed in a newspaper by MoveOn? Are you assuming that ‘most people here’ are somehow affiliated with MoveOn?
Or I guess you could continue your relentless quest for grasping at political power at the expense of your country’s, and its peoples’, interests.
It’s funny that you argue that we’re just grasping at straws for political interests when in pages of arguments on this blog, you’ve yet to give a solid argument as to why opposing these programs on the basis that it gives the government undue powers isn’t sound. You may still think it’s wrong, but to say it’s just “grasping at political power” is unfounded and disrespectful.
This news, should you choose to accept it, really changes very little in this debate.
I just keep messing up the formatting of my posts.
That first paragraph is a quote from JS’s post. Sorry about that.
@ Ben:
Facts remain that the US hasn’t been hit with a major terrorist attack since 9/11. Someone’s doing something right. I understand a lot of my friends on the left chalk it to luck or happenstance. I prefer to think of it as the benefits of a tougher policy, including eavesdropping on overseas phone calls w/ known terrorists.
I still can’t figure our what civil liberties we’ve lost. Can you? It’s not even a clever bumper sticker to those disposed to hate Republicans, but “Bush Lied Thousands Died” appears to be the rallying cry of millions of, well, morons. No doubt they represent the same 30% or so of the Democratic Party that believe Bush & Cheney, for mysterious reasons shrouded in an inpenetrable fog, planned/had advance knowledge of/let happen 9/11.
So now I can I call JS a lying imbecile without the concern trolls getting all het up? Seriously, what does this troll add to the conversation that lets him post things like this and still be treated as a member of civil society?
I have some anti-lion spray I’ll sell you. Just squirt a little on each day and you won’t be mauled by any lions.
Well of course you can’t – you cued into the authoritarian line long ago. If you need civil liberties, the Decider will give you some.
But never mind that,why are we still getting videos from Mr. September 11, Osama Bin Laden? Seems like $500 billion would get his head on a stick.
Well, aside from the fact that I believe there should be some minimal constitutional right to privacy, it’s actually not hard to find rights enumerated in the constitution that are being tread upon.
I’d say two we’ve lost are the right of people to “be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures,” as well as “No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law,” and “No State shall … deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” That’s the Fourth, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution. Granted, the latter two haven’t yet affected me personally, and probably won’t, but that doesn’t mean they should be ignored.
Furthermore, I’m uncomfortable that the system of surveillance that we’ve arrived at is basically unchecked by any of the normal balance of powers or oversight of any kind, which could very well lead to all sorts of government shenanigans, and we’d have no way of knowing. As I’ve said in the past, it’s not been 50 years since Watergate, and yet everyone thinks it’s a great idea to give the president the power to eavesdrop anyone, anywhere, without any oversight or accountability. I’m not accusing Bush of doing this, I’m just saying that if he or anyone who comes after him did do it, we simply wouldn’t know, and that’s not a power I think a single branch of the government should ever have.
Also, as Waldo pointed out, this:
Does not imply this:
This is magical thinking, not logic.
Oops, never mind. What a surprise! The administration lying for political purposes. The real surprise is that McConnell admitted it.
Another surprise: MoveOn.org never called Petraeus a traitor.