I run a website called nancies.org, which is about Dave Matthews Band. (The unfortunate name comes from one of their songs, “Dancing Nancies.”) Another jam band, Widespread Panic, has similar fan sites, including one named Panic Freaks. It’s simply a discussion board for fans. Membership is required in order to participate or even read it, and new members must be vetted by the site’s founders in order to gain access. I recently became a member of this site.
The band’s bassist is from Richmond, and they have a decent concentration of fans here. (And their late great guitarist Mike Houser‘s brother-in-law lives in Charlottesville, but I’m not sure that earns them any special cred here.) So it’s not surprising that the discussion on Panic Freaks recently turned to the Virginia Senate race. Like most jam bands, the majority of their fans are liberal Democrats, so the discussion has largely consisted of everybody agreeing that Sen. George Allen should be replaced by Democratic opponent Jim Webb. Nothing special there.
Then, on Tuesday evening, somebody dropped something really interesting into the discussion. A particularly active member of this online community — he’s posted 1,552 times in the past two years — related a story about the time that he met Sen. Allen’s ex-wife. (Again, only members may read the website.) I do not know this gentleman, and know little other than that he is a 29-year-old man who is a Widespread Panic fan. I cannot vouch for him or his story. But I can say that I’ve heard variants of these allegations time and time again from past and present friends of Sen. Allen’s ex-wife or her parents, who heard the allegations from those individuals.
Here’s what the fellow wrote:
I actually met his first wife after the Greek/San Diego run last year. I caught a connecting flight in Pheonix from San Diego and sat next to his ex wife and her son on the plane. Patrice Rubel, I believe her name was. She introduced herself almost right after I sat down. I figured this would be the type of person I would enjoy getting information from and she looked like the type that would enjoy a beverage, so I bought her one, which she happily drank, along with a few more after that. By the time we landed in New Orleans, she had given me an earful as to the piece of shit her ex husband was/is.
She went off about his racist mentality even mentioning affiliation with the KKK. He didn’t seem to have a problem slapping her around either which was probabally the reason he was arrested and forced to seal his records. You can’t have a “Compassionate Conservative” politician with a felony assault record preachin to his Christain conservative base about moral values.
As far as his ex wife, Mrs. Rubel goes, she was a very pleasant and kind lady, and from what she told me, quiet the accomplished artist. She mentioned there is a painting of Pres. Reagan she made that is still hanging in the white house.
Crazy thing is, while she was telling me all of this, I never doubted her for one second that she was telling me the truth. allen’s actions over the past few months have only confirmed this for me.
Her words as best as I can remember. “He’s gonna run for President one day and everyone is going to find out how much of a piece of shit racist he really is.”
Turns out she was right.
To repeat: I am not acquainted with the gentleman who posted this story. I cannot vouch for him or for his story. But I have heard these allegations many times from trusted friends. Of course, the frequency with which a rumor is repeated has no bearing on its accuracy. Only Sen. Allen, his wife, and their immediate circle of friends and family are able confirm or deny such allegations.
That is incredibly thin.
One of the ways a journalist would begin to check the credibility of a story like this would be to check details that are checkable. One that jumped out at me is the Reagan painting. With a five minute internet search I could find zero references to such a painting. I imagine it would be easy to find if it was there.
Maybe someone else has more time to invest in researching that, but if there is no such painting hanging in the White House, it pokes a hole in the credibility of the story.
And I love the part about his affiliation with the Klan. Was he a kleagle or merely a klaxton? I demand to know.
It’s easy to imagine the author of this fantasy merrily typing along but getting a little excited and tossing in a Klan reference. And as a throwaway line no less. Are you kidding me? The freakin’ Klan!
Oh, but he did pass the rigorous vetting procedures at Panic Freaks, so it must be true.
she looked like the type that would enjoy a beverage
Hmmm… I wonder just what a member of that “type” would look like?
I wonder if it would be possible to check the flight records. I mean if she wasn’t on a flight out of Phoenix on the date he refers to (“after the Greek/San Diego run last year”) then the story is an obvious fabrication.
But if she was on the flight . . .
That’s quite a slander, Waldo, and beneath you. Probably more appropriate for Bouchillon’s site, or Raising Dough … er, “Raising Kaine.” Allen’s ex-wife is Ann Waddell.
What are the names of Jim Webb’s three ex-wives?
There is a REAL easy way to clear this up. Fess up George Allen – arrest and divorce records. YOU can make this all go away in 10 minutes.
I suspect that if somebody was going to invent a crazy story for the purpose of harming Senator Allen that they’d post it in a place a little more conspicuous. But that’s assuming a particular purpose, which I’m not sure can be done safely.
For the detectives among us, “the Greek/San Diego run last year” refers to WSP’s 07/10/05 performance at the Greek theatre in Berkeley followed by the 07/12/05 performance at Embarcadero Marina Park South in San Diego.
Okay online sleuths and MSM reporters: does anyone know how to check flight records?
Again, if she wasn’t on a flight then this is a complete fabrication, but if she was on the flight then maybe someone needs to track down this guy and check out his story.
I suspect that the best that could be demonstrated is that a flight did, indeed, go from Pheonix to New Orleans shortly after July 12, 2005. Even if this fellow has a datestamped photograph of him sitting next to Ms. Rubel on an airplane, that doesn’t mean that the conversation in question took place.
Taking the long way around the barn here aren’t we? I’m not a member of the fan community – why don’t you contact the guy and ask him to corroborate the story? Times and dates. Description of Ms. Rubel.
I’m tryin’.
But George Allen’s ex-wife is Anne Waddell, not Patrice Rubel. Unless, he had two ex-wives.
Rubel was her maiden name, tj. She’s Waddell now that she’s remarried.
I should explain my efforts to get in touch with this guy. His e-mail address is not listed on the website and I can’t send him a message via the website’s messaging system, which reports that he “has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages.” So I’ve contacted the folks who run the website and asked them to ask him to get in touch with me.
I am absolutely shocked that you would make a garbage post like this Waldo. This is even below Ben Tribbett. Some anonymous guy posts about an unwitnesses conversation that is facially full of problems and you post it here. Unbelievable.
Let me add, this is exactly why the blogosphere will be viewed with any type of legitimacy. This is 10 steps below tabloid journalism.
Sorry, will NOT be viewed with any type of legitimacy.
Simply because a portrait of Reagan doesn’t currently hang (somewhere) at 1600, doesn’t mean it didn’t at one point. Faulty logic in determining potential episode veracity.
You also will likely not get flight records without a court order.
That said, Allen’s damning record of personal behavior, as highlighted in his sister’s book “The Fifth Quarter”, along with his consistent inconsistencies since childhood, should provide ample question of his true character to even those who seldom function by connecting “behavior-related” dots.
Allen, like Bush, is a fraud, especially when their own approach relies heavily on their constituency’s intellectual laziness in simply digging for the actual truth. Keep digging Waldo!
Roanoker seems to have missed Waldo’s more than adequate disclaimers. Stevie Wonder could read between the lines of Roanoker’s partisan attack! Ha!
In the interest of fairness I should add that several people have pointed out to me this morning that similar rumors exist about Jim Webb, given that he has been married twice previously. That’s news to me — I’d never heard such things — but, then I grew up in George Allen’s former town, not Jim Webb’s. The difference, it would seem, is that Allen’s own sister has written extensively about Allen’s history of physically abusing loved ones. No such things has been stated about Webb.
I can only repeat what I wrote in the above blog entry: I cannot vouch for such rumors. The frequency with which a rumor is repeated has no bearing on its accuracy. And so on.
Then why report it? Or, at the very least, why not wait until after you hear back from the anonymous forum poster? All the disclaimers in the world don’t make this any less slimy. (Not to say you can’t be as slimy as you want to be; it is your site.)
This stuff (abuse, racism, heritage, etc) has been talked about for years in C’ville and Richmond. Only in 2006 are arrest records, teammate testimonies, his sister’s book, and all that stuff coming out in the open. Why is it taking bloggers to put this stuff out there? Why has the media been protecting George Allen from this stuff? What kind of spell does he have on them? Inquiring minds want to know.
Sounds like Allen’s whiny teeth are about to get knocked down his soft throat…couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.
“If a tree falls in the forest . . . ”
If it weren’t for “rumors”, we (who aren’t on the inside) would never have gotten “Watergate”, the “Gulf of Tonkin Resolution”, Mark Foley, Enron, etc.,etc.,etc. . . .
Good journalism often starts with that which is “rumored”, even though strongly denied by the ultimate offender. Waldo’s disclaimers fall in line with the historical path to “substantive journalistic process.”
More should realize that merely “taking the word” of someone who stands firm in motive to gain or maintain power, is not only irresponsible (according to the framers of the Constitution), but grossly naive. Is it any wonder there is such a remarkable chasm within America’s “perception” of moral responsibility?
I write about things all the time that I’m not personally in a position to verify. This is certainly on the lowest end of the scale of things that I’d be willing to report on. The author’s posting history doesn’t provide evidence that he’s a liar, he’s a trusted member of the community, and his story jibes with what I’ve heard from acquaintances of Mrs. Waddell (Ms. Rubel). If he were a known liar or if his story departed from reality as I understand it then I wouldn’t touch it.
It’s my hope that people smarter than I — that is, most readers — will be able to determine if it’s true or not or figure out how others could do so. I have determined to the best of my abilities that it’s likely enough to be true that it’s worth passing on. But it was the author, not I, who made this story available online.
He’s pseudonymous, not anonymous. But that’s neither here nor there. I can’t figure out what what difference it would make. Frankly, I’m not sure what I’m going to ask him. I can just imagine the discussion:
Waldo: So, is this true?
Dude: Yeah.
Waldo: Huh. How about that?
Dude: Yup. I was on the plane. And that’s what she said.
Waldo: Wow.
Even if the guy had an audio tape, then we’d all just argue over whether it was really her voice.
Okay, fair enough. As you said, it is on the low end of what I’ve come to expect from your site, and that’s the reason I was a little puzzled.
And, hey, “nancies.org” is a great site name. It’s like a shibboleth for the DMB true believers. :)
We sold a couple of thousand nancies.org t-shirts a few years ago. You’ve got to be hard core to walk around wearing a t-shirt that says “nancies” in big letters. I can’t find any images of the shirt, but here’s a banner ad for the first shirt:
Then we found that people were somewhat more likely to buy shirts that didn’t say nancies.org on them. So we introduced the “Love! Baby!” line, after the chorus in the song “Granny.”
Turns out only girls and gay men want shirts that say “Love! Baby!” Live and learn. So we did what came naturally, and introduced the babytoll T:
Some day I’ll get back into selling merch. There’s a lot of money in that.
I should add, more on topic, that posting this wasn’t something that I took lightly. I saw the post in question within an hour after it appeared. Over the following two and a half days I sought advice from fellow bloggers, talked to friends and family, combed over the individual’s posting history and compared what he’d said to what Allen’s sister had written about him.
This doesn’t just affect Sen. Allen. It affects the life of a woman who is a private citizen. If she was, in fact, abused by Sen. Allen that’s actually worse than if she wasn’t, at least for her. There are millions of American women who have suffered physical abuse at the hands of spouses, and there aren’t a lot of them who care to see that splashed across blogs.
I thought it through and came uneasily but resolutely to the conclusion to post it, thick with caveats and devoid of hype, as fairly as I could.
Apparently the nancies.org admin (the bastard!) doesn’t allow hotlinking images from his site.
(I saw red x’s instead of images, but I was able to pull the URL from the page source and paste it in.)
(I’m done geeking out the thread.)
Bah, nevermind, it’s fixed, and I’m shutting up.
After years of whispered improper cattle deals, real estate doings, even rumors of the murder of Vince Foster; followed by Congressional hearing after hearing to investigate same…the Rightwing has a weak moan on this issue. Especially when George Allen has the power to resolve the questions with a simple disclosure.
I have come to expect such convenient short memory, or lack of consistency from Republican partisans. True believers all, I have to note: It’s a bitch when your kharma runs over your dogma.
Selah!
Waldo, once again you disappoint me. You are better than this sick rumor mongoring. To quote Ms. Waddell;
“George’s opponent is trying to make something more of this matter. And I will not stand for it. George was, and is, a wonderful person and to try to make him into something else is deceitful, wrong, and will surely backfire against Mr. Webb and his allies. … Let me make it perfectly clear. If I were still a resident of Virginia, I would proudly cast my vote for George Allen.”
How remarkable that she ever left a guy that’s she’s so over-the-moon about.
“After years of whispered improper cattle deals, real estate doings…”
Uh, Bubby, Hillary turned $1,000 into $100,000 trading in cattle futures. I’m not with the SEC, but that sure sounds like grounds for an investigation. The Clintons’ Whitewater partner, Jim McDougal, was indicted and convicted of some sort of fraud. And let’s not forget Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey, Monica Lewinsky, and Juanita Broadrick. The man was credibly accused of rape for God’s sake! He was impeached and lost his law license.
All you guys have on Allen are (often) anonymous whispers. They’re not comparable.
As much as I heartily dislike our Junior Senator and will vote him out of office at every opportunity, I can’t give the third-person hearsay posted here any credence on its own merit.
Do I believe George Allen is a schmuck with a first-grade bully’s mentality? Absolutely. That alone is enough to kick him off my “Do Elect” list. Do I believe he is emotionally capable of having physically abused his 1st wife? Absolutely, see above for the reason. Bullies are created by the time they are in high school.
But did he actually do it? Jury’s still out for me. I’ve seen no concrete evidence that would allow me to convict.
There are hundreds of reasons to vote against the jerk and for Webb. Fortunately, I don’t need this one. I hope others don’t either. Let’s let it die.
“I do not know this gentleman, and know little other than that he is a 29-year-old man who is a Widespread Panic fan. I cannot vouch for him or his story”
Waldo: You’re pulling a NLS http://www.spankthatdonkey.com/spankthatdonkey2/2006/9/28/nls-credibility-goes-a-long-way-try-it.html
all you are doing is “shilling” for RK.. because obviously NLS has lost so much credibility with the Allen smearing, you are all that is left..
oh, I didn’t see this beauty, before my previous comment:
Waldo:
“Even if this fellow has a datestamped photograph of him sitting next to Ms. Rubel on an airplane, that doesn’t mean that the conversation in question took place.”
That’s a fast backpeddle… Well if you have reason to now think the conversation actually may not have taken place, why are you posting this at all?
This is worst than “heresay”… I didn’t know you had joined the “at all costs club” Waldo?
? Raising Kaine has nothing to do with this. I don’t understand why you brought them up.
I didn’t state or imply that. I’m simply demonstrating the problem with the logic of attempting to prove that particular conversation was had by demonstrating that two people were in the same place at the same time.
Imagine that I claim that you and I talked on the phone a couple of months ago. To prove this I demonstrate that you have my phone number and that you have a telephone. That, of course, proves nothing. So there’s no point in attempting to provide such evidence. It’s meaningless.
So. You’re no better than the rest ….
Waldo, his sister has NOT written “extensively”, she wrote a short section of one chapter in a novella of her life based on true events but with a fictionalized flair.
Waddell is a private citizen. I wonder if she could sue you for suggesting she is a lush who drinks with strangers and makes up stories about her ex-husband?
Oh, and Waldo, this is the stuff that never shows up at my site because while I do talk about other bloggers spreading rumors, I thought we were talking about issues now.
As to those who say we can clear this up, I should think that Waddell’s denying the claims pretty much puts that one to rest, unless you want to call her a liar as well as a lush who would drink too much with a stranger who was somewhat younger than she was.
Waldo comments:
“Imagine that I claim that you and I talked on the phone a couple of months ago. To prove this I demonstrate that you have my phone number and that you have a telephone. That, of course, proves nothing. So there’s no point in attempting to provide such evidence. It’s meaningless.”
You take a post from another web site that alledges a conversation takes place… and since you are a “credible blog” (or were) You give it credence by posting it?
Yes, the impact RK would have by posting this is laughable, NLS posting this neglible, You posting this only costs you credibility by yes, “shilling” for RK…
If we were to set up rules for bloggers it should be do not “grab anonymous comments” from other blogs (you yourself can not verify who made the comment), and pass them off like it is some kind of evidence of whatever the commenter is saying….
It’s nothing but rumor mongering. i.e. if you cannot “vouch for his story”, or reference a credible news source such as a, (oh dear I say), Professional Journalist or news source, don’t print it !
Um. I didn’t say that Charles, you did. I didn’t say or imply that she’s a “lush.” We do all sorts of things “with strangers” on airplanes — sleep with them, watch movies with them, eat with them, and even drink with them. And, again, I didn’t say that she makes up stories — you did.
You’re implying a relationship where none exists. If the New York Times is a liberal paper that desires a Webb victory (as I suspect you’d argue), am I not “shilling” for the Times? And when you compare Mike Stark to Lee Harvey Oswald are you not “shilling” for, say, the Richmond Times Dispatch (to pick a random conservative paper)?
Or is it possible that you and I both come to independent conclusions that speak only for ourselves and not for third parties?
You might be interested to know that somebody else has come forward with a tale of spousal abuse on the part of George Allen. In this case it’s a pillar-of-the-community type here in Charlottesville. You’ll need to abandon the concern about anonymous sources and set about attacking his credibility, I expect.
It seems to me that there are far too many of these stories floating around for them all to be lies. I’ve had a few told to me and I’m nowhere near C’ville!
Where’s there’s smoke, there is usually fire.
Of course, if Allen just released those sealed divorce records….
Waldo,
You know, I’ve pretty much had it with these folks. Your crime, my friend, is that you’re attempting to use actual logic with these people. That simply doesn’t work anymore. As we’ve seen, facts, truth, and hell, even fiction, have been totally turned on their heads by the race the Republicans are running. I do find it ironic that the same Republicans who run to spread rumors about Webb’s personal life, the same ones who defend folks like Wadhams, Howell, LaCivita, Matalin & Gillespie – the vanguard of dirt-ball politics – now scream bloody murder when the tables are turned. It may be nasty, but the chickens are coming home to roost in their front yards.
George Allen and his entire apparatus are hypocritical. Where were these same “outraged” Republicans when he ran that smear campaign (likely aided by his gay staffers) about Mary Sue Terry’s sexuality? Where were they when he was undercutting Democrats at every turn using nasty tactics as governor? Why don’t they scream when the “A-Team” folks “shill” for the Allen campaign? But, they have the nerve to hit you for your independent work against Allen? Gimme me a f-ing break! Oh, maybe they were on that “civil rights pilgrimage” with him.
It’s a new day Virginia. Win or lose, this generation of Democrats is not going to sit back and take the same old crap from Republicans and not fight back. If they want to cry for the moral high-ground, let them lead the way. Otherwise, if they can’t take the heat, then they should get the Hell out of the kitchen!
Now, go ahead and let them accuse me of “shilling” for you, Waldo. If I have to go to battle, Mr. Jaquith is welcome into my foxhole any day.
— Conaway
Nobody complained that I was “shilling” for George Allen a month ago (1, 2). Other than, y’know, Democrats.
The website with the reports of George Allen’s habit of spitting on women is once again accessible. [“Say Hello to Spitgate”]