“Excuse me, I don’t think I understood the point of your question.”

or

“I haven’t really given it much thought, but some people think that is so.”

I doubt any of this would even have been remembered.

Fox was digging at something else entirely (testing Allen’s integrity on the M-word issue), and probably phrased question poorly. George’s reaction is what confused and baffled pretty much everyone I know. My Jewish friends are offended that he’d be so offended. They’d have probably considered George Allen in a positive light for a moment if he was proud of his Jewish heritage – but he clearly was not proud at all.

Essentially, he’s right in the text of his response – we don’t care what his heritage is. The problem is the way he said it. It shoes a deep resentment over that heritage and could possibly explain his bully demeanor (people ashamed of who they are often lash out at others to keep attention off themselves).

It’s a baffling exchange to be sure, and that theory is only one possible. Waldo’s theory on a more recent thread is far more compassionate and forgiving. Bottom line: I am voting for any challenger because I cannot stand Senator Allen’s voting record. He has voted against my interests just about every possible chance to vote.

Allen’s response is what caused him problems. And again — his use of “casting aspersions” cannot in my mind be attributed to anything other than his asserting that to accuse him of having Jewish heritage was somehow to demean him, and thus bespeaks a mindset that was not at the time the remark was made particularly accepting of the idea that he might have Jewish blood, or that having Jewish blood was not a bad thing.

That doesn’t even make sense, but that’s par for the course I guess.

“And if you think it’s a stretch for me to say this sounds racist:”

Again, you simply ignore all the context in which this question was asked. It wasn’t some fishing expidition out of the blue. Allen was the one who raised the issue of his grandfather AFTER having spent time denying mentions of his heritage elsewhere. Allen was the one who for some reason zealously demanded that papers retract anything about his Jewish heritage, which they mentioned in passing, not out of some witchhunt motive. Allen is the one who made a big deal, selectively as it turns out, of his religion and heritage. And it seems like there is growing evidence that he is outright lying about not knowing until now.

None of this really reflects much on anything more than Allen’s bizarre behavior and raging, paranoid temper.

I disagree. Allen’s full quote was “one of [our] values is freedom of religion, and not making aspersions about people because of their religious beliefs.”

I learned:

George Allen certainly knew of the concequences of being Identified as Jewish-his political career depended on nondisclosure for he, sadly to say, would never have been elected as Governor in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

The identification of and the playing up of his redneckess? was to molify those constituents who would not have voted for him-”Welcome to the ‘real’ Virginia-my macaca”

His mother maintaining that she wanted to spare the children the persecution that her father experienced for being Jewish does not wash with me. I cannot remember the last Jewish Polgrom that occured in the United States or for that matter in California.

He was identified as a “Bully” when growing up and in more recent times-his politics-the whispering campaign that his opponent-Mary Sue Terry was a ‘Lesbian” that occured during his gubertorial run and soon after winning the seat;stating that we should “knock out the soft teeth of Democrats down their whinning throats”

Denying that he did not know what Macaca meant, the identification to and pandering to the “redneck”segment and the plausible denial of his Jewish roots leads me to feel that George Felix Allen Jr would be an excellent US Senator and deserves to be re-elected.

That’s not at all what she said, the Washing Post article says she was afraid of her children facing persecution and she and her husband decided she’d try to pass. In fact the quote your skewing is:
“At the table in Palos Verdes, Calif., Allen’s mother, who is 83, said she told her son the truth: That she had been raised as a Jew in Tunisia before moving to the United States. She said that she and the senator’s father, famed former Redskins coach George Allen, had wanted to protect their children from living with the fear that she had experienced during World War II. Her father, Felix Lumbroso, was imprisoned by the Nazis during the German occupation of Tunis.”

You might think she’s covering for her son, but at least let’s not put words in her mouth.

“everyone was sick of getting a run around about what his heritage was” This illustrates my point of the idea of whites having the “right” to demand to know others ethnic background. If Allen were “passing” why would you be so offended?

“I have my doubts, but even if you are not…”
Yes, yes Plunge, you caught me. Karl Rove called me and told me to come post on this board to sway the clearly undecided group here to vote republican.

“…you seem to be projecting awful hard, at the same time trying to strip all the context away that makes it make any sense other than racism.”
I am “projecting”; I’m projecting myself in this guys place. The context is what? That Allen blurted what was likely a racial slur he picked up from his mother, so the fact his Grandfather was Jewish would prove that his unconvincing denials of the meaning of this word were false? Had he answered the affirmative, negative or with indignation the question of why he thought yelping out such a phrase was appropriate.

Unless of course your argument is that his Jewish ancestry proved he was a racist.

“Being Jewish isn’t like being Black, sorry. It’s not just an ethnicity: it’s also traditional heritage AND also a religion, all at once.”
Sorry but being black is also a heritage, and it was I who pointed out the multifaceted part of Jewish identity in an earlier post. And just for edification purposes, Judaism is made up of multiple ethnicities.

As to Allen’s Pork references; 1) I’ve often joked about not eating chitlins and grits 2) My argument isn’t about Allen keeping kosher 3) I don’t know the context of the quote, but it seems like he was making a bad joke.

Of course, kosher laws aren’t a “stereotype”; they’re an important part of Jewish tradition. Perhaps your letting you dislike of the man color everything he says as sinister.

His hiding of his background, the meat of your post, is important, and says something about not just him but how he views others; as intolerant folks who’ll persecute him at the drop of a hat. Hey what do you know, he was kind’ right.

But seriously, I was born in the 70’s and there have been times, for my safety outrageously enough, that I’ve had to not advertise my mixed heritage. There have been mother’s who would let there kids play with me, people, black and white, who’ve physically attacked me, and in college a “liberal” asked me how it was I spoke so well. Allen, who’s older than me, has good reason to be fearful of the consequences of being open with strangers.

I know you don’t believe I’m some Allen supporter, but I’m really not trying to tell you to vote for him or like him, etc. I’m pointing out that there are plenty of people in this country who’d react the same, including me. If your point was that his reaction shows him to lack statesmanship, that’s totally valid. If you don’t like that he uses racist terminology for other, and thus won’t vote for him, then you’d be right.

But if your point were that his Grandfather’s “Jewishness” would in some way prove he’s a racist, your being bigoted yourself. And if you think it’s a stretch for me to say this sounds racist:

“It has been reported your grandfather Felix, whom you were given your middle name for, was Jewish. Could you please tell us whether your forebears include Jews and, if so, at which point Jewish identity might have ended?”

Well, your either being disingenuous, or a little bit insensitive.

No, but at that point, everyone was sick of getting a run around about what his heritage was, and this was another point where he seemed bizarrely coy about it. So she probed a little farther. God knows Allen has not been quiet about his heritage and his religion until now. It was fair game because HE RAISED THE ISSUE HIMSELF.

“My point is that her question could only be seen as not being racist by people who haven’t had that same experience. I have and I completely understand his reaction then and there. I’m not an Allen suporter myself, but I do know predjudice when I see it.”

I have my doubts, but even if you are not, you seem to be projecting awful hard, at the same time trying to strip all the context away that makes it make any sense other than racism.

“Your missing my more important point, if I went to a job interveiw (and that’s what a political debate is) and someone said “Your Grandparents and Mother are Black, are you Black and if not when did you stop being Black”, it would in fact be untoward and insulting.”

Being Jewish isn’t like being Black, sorry. It’s not just an ethnicity: it’s also traditional heritage AND also a religion, all at once.

“Untoward because it’s a tactless and uncouth attempt get me to either try to deny my blackness or say that I am black and thus deny my white ancestory. It is a ploy that renders any answer unacceptable. This is what happened to Allen.”

Bull. All Allen had to say was that “sure, that’s part of my ancestry.” No crazy denial of anything. I suspect it’s only because HE believes it would be a negative that he’s been so coy about it. I mean, he was just quoted as saying “just an interesting nuance to my background.” That’s a perfectly sensible answer that would have deflected the question without any problems. But of course, being George Allen, he also went on to say: “I still had a ham sandwich for lunch. And my mother made great pork chops.”

Can you see yourself making a similar comment about your race, using the same flat out sterotypes to define yourself against that heritage?

“In this case trying to tack “the jewish question” on to a political debate, or as you say a debate on whether or not Allen’s a bigot, is unseemly to say the least.”

It’s not unseemly when he’s bizarrely tried to deny it and play it down, when he’s spent a lot of time playing up his other lines of heritage. Lots of politicians play on their family backgrounds to define who they are, and George Allen is no different. But in his case, he’s played up the fact that he’s Irish, and played down, to the point of demanding that biographies hush it up, his French and Jewish roots. THAT doesn’t sound bizarre to you?

The question is: why is Allen doing that?

“Why not simply ask where he heard the term macaca, which from what I understand is a french term, not one having to do with Saphardic Jews who I undertood came from Spain (I think) and speak a spanish/hebrew dialect.”

You know, he WAS asked, and he and his staff gave like, five different contradictory answers. We’re not getting a straight answer on that one. You’re also confusing his mother (who grew up in French Tunesia where the term was common slang) with his grandparents. Not the same thing.

“And c’mon, didn’t she sound to you just a little racist, be honest. ”

Racist? Good grief, you really are stretching.

Were I Allen, would I have handled it differently? Maybe. Would I have been as appalled that my Grandfather being Jewish was made into some sort of issue? You better believe it.

You seem to be equating Allen’s supposed religiosity with his family history, which doesn’t seem fair. Many of my African ancestors were likely animists, I am not, should that be an issue if I were to run for office? If, when running for office, I made some sort of anti-Irish or Italian remark, would it be appropriate to delve into whether or not any of my family practiced Voudon or Santeria in a televised debate?

Or would the cause of “getting to the bottom” of my seeming racism simply provide a convenient smoke screen to sneer at my family history?

I think maybe Allen’s anger was because he felt that the latter was going on. In his place I would feel the same, and in fact have in the past felt the same and reacted with as much anger as he did.

I have proudly waved my diverse ethnic heritage for many, many years, but that doesn’t give whites, or anyone else, license to make some sort of political or philosophical point using my background. After all, I’m not an issue to be discussed; I’m a person who can be offended. I’m a person whose seen first hand that many whites, liberal or not, are racists and I may be, in others estimation “too sensitive”, but I still have a right to be suspicious of anyone who wants to question me about my race.

Maybe Allen feels the same. Maybe his family, fleeing Europe decided to “pass” and not advertise their Jewish roots, maybe they passed down from generation to generation a fear of those for whom their Jewish heritage would be important. Maybe after all the problems with anti-Semitic speech on the internet these days, with many supposedly liberal sites being flooded with racist bile from their own supporters, maybe, just maybe, Allen gets anxious when someone says “Are you a Jew?”

I’m not saying anyone should or shouldn’t vote for Allen, I’m not defending anything he’s said or done prior to this, but I am defending his anger at having to explain his ethnicity to people during a political debate.

I know that people who haven’t been through that experience, of feeling attacked by someone who’s seemingly a racist, will continue to believe (or frankly pretend to believe) that this wasn’t fuelled by the rising acceptability of anti-Semitism, but to the rest of us, to people who’ve felt the sting of prejudice when we least expected it, this whole scenario was all too familiar, just as the shock and pain that was displayed by Allen was.

What’s important, in my opinion, to keep in mind is that like his politics or that the man’s a human being who deserves respect; that racist thought can appear where we least expect it; and that those of us who are of mixed backgrounds, Allen included, cannot rely on the goodwill and decency of society at large, we must stand together and today I’ll stand with George Allen.

My point is that her question could only be seen as not being racist by people who haven’t had that same experience. I have and I completely understand his reaction then and there. I’m not an Allen suporter myself, but I do know predjudice when I see it.

Your missing my more important point, if I went to a job interveiw (and that’s what a political debate is) and someone said “Your Grandparents and Mother are Black, are you Black and if not when did you stop being Black”, it would in fact be untoward and insulting.

Untoward because it’s a tactless and uncouth attempt get me to either try to deny my blackness or say that I am black and thus deny my white ancestory. It is a ploy that renders any answer unacceptable. This is what happened to Allen.

Insulting because it implies my race is in some way a measure of my acceptability for whatever the position is, it denies my individual worth. In this case trying to tack “the jewish question” on to a political debate, or as you say a debate on whether or not Allen’s a bigot, is unseemly to say the least. Why not simply ask where he heard the term macaca, which from what I understand is a french term, not one having to do with Saphardic Jews who I undertood came from Spain (I think) and speak a spanish/hebrew dialect.

And c’mon, didn’t she sound to you just a little racist, be honest.

Then, you are fogetting that ALLEN brought up the issue of his heritage, not anyone else. And the way he brought it up was more than a little confusing given his prior behavior in getting angry at a biography.

In context, the reporters question makes perfect sense. Where Allen learned the word “macaca” is valid story. His background is relevant to that story. He brought up that background again, himself, and did so in ways that implied the media was illegitimate. So he got plumbed some more as to why he was being confusing and coy about it. Makes sense to anyone trying to have it not make sense, as far as I can see.

Given that Allen tried to correct TNR when they said his heritage included a Jewish side, that gives the reporters confused accusation a little more context.

Actually, that was Bob Gibson of the Daily Progress — TNR just reported on it. But, yes, that was a strange thing.

Given that Allen tried to correct TNR when they said his heritage included a Jewish side, that gives the reporters confused accusation a little more context. Here is a guy who insists that his granparents weren’t Jews, and then brings their persecution in the Holocaust up in a debate. To any informed person, that was bizarre behavior demanding of a follow up question.