I don’t know what to make of the problem of illegal immigration. I don’t know enough about the topic to hold a position on many of the central issues. It all seems too complex for me to make any snap decisions on.
I was aware of some sort of an immigrant protest due to take place today, but I assumed that not much would come of it. I’m watching the NBC Nightly News right now and it’s quite clear that I was wrong.
In city after city, state after state, the largest protests in the history of the states took place today. Hundreds of thousands in the streets of New York City and Los Angeles. Thousands of businesses closed. Immigrants from Ireland, Poland, Nigeria, Mexico, Sengal and Morocco took to the streets, waving American flags and singing the national anthem. The most astounding statistic was that ninety percent of the truckers needed to move cargo from the California ports simply didn’t show up. It’s clear that this was a major event, probably one of the most important protests in recent years.
I don’t know what will come of it. But if the goal was to make Americans aware of the impact of immigrants on the United States, it worked.
Listening to the radio coverage in Los Angeles at KFI 640am it’s been a non-event. Sure there were massive crowds of people protesting, but legal citizens in Los Angeles (and Chicago as well) also enjoyed the shortest commute times ever during monday rush hours. The hospital emergancy rooms were vacant for the first time in a long time. And with the exception of the major produce markets in downtown L.A. and businesses along the march route, the other businesses were open and largely unaffected by the protests.
As for the cargo not being picked up- 30 percent of that gets shipped by rail- basically anything that’s not staying in California or going to a neighboring state (if it’s going east of the Mississippi it gets shipped by rail).
The problem with those protesting, is that across the board they all want some sort of illegal amnesty, but when you ask them “Does the U.S. have a right to enforce their borders?” They won’t answer that question. If you don’t do something about border enforcement first then any sort of amnesty or worker program is useless.
Presumably because people weren’t being hurt on the job. It’s not like people are saying “hey, I’m not going to the ER for this hernia — I’m protesting today.”
TrvlnMan… I agree with your position on the issue. I think people are getting two arguments mixed up. There is one argument that states that people who come to the US should do so legally (my position). It is a total slap in the face to the people who went through the process of naturalization if you allow people who came here illegally to gain citizenship simply because the elite business powers want cheap labor. The other argument is that immigration should end to preserve the “American way of life.” This position is held by a very small minority of Americans. The average American is simply asking our government to enforce our boarders, tell people to respect our laws, and to come to America legally. What is there to protest about that? Nothing.
I remember a while ago some people were boycotting taco bell because they wouldn’t pay their tomato pickers an extra couple cents per bushel or something (taco bell caved, you can keep eating your crunchy gordita supreme). If the entire immigrant population of the US could be organized to pick out one company at a time doing some injustice either in the U.S. or in latin America, they could have a hell of an impact.
I wonder what would happen if they could vote…
Waldo wrote:
I’m more inclined to believe it’s because in Southern California (and a lot of Huge cities) the emergency room doubles as the family General Practioner. Which can be directly attributed to the fact that illegal workers are paid dirt wages at jobs that don’t offer benefits which is possible because they are here illegally (Jobs american’s would do if the employers paid enough). Additionally California has a major problem with Workers Comp insurance rates due to high amounts of fraud so it’s less likely that the workers comp angle is the reason they aren’t crowded today.
Sure it feels good want to help people who only want a better quality and standard of life. But the illegal immigration issue is just as much an issue about workers and big business. And illegal immigration (and the subsequent amnesty they want) is an issue that benefits big business over the worker. As a result a lot of people that would benefit by a tighter boarder enforcement/controls wind up supporting a position that is simply cutting their own throats.
“simply because the elite business powers want cheap labor”.
Wow hold on, don’t just blame the “evil corporations”. We the consumers (just like the budding energy crisis) we have to pony up to our share of the responsibility.
For instance, the US has been buying up housing stock like mad, would that be happening if costs where 5%, 10%, 15% higher?
Elite business powers profit from satisfying the demand we create. And consumers respond to even the most subtle shift in prices.
If a farmer is selling tomatoes for a $1.00 and they guy down the way is selling them the for .96 cents, whose going to sell more tomatoes? I bet TrvinMN is going to buy the .96 cent tomato, and I bet he or she has been buying them the whole time (just like me).
Cheap food is another one of those factors that has allowed our economy do its thing for the last 20 years. Because, instead of having to use its credit cards to buy food, America can use its credit cards to buy large screen televisions and lazy boy chairs (thats a joke, but not really).
I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know it is a bit hypocritical to practice consumer habits that hyperactively encourage mass immigration (you know the free market being what it is); and then want to criminalize them when that same labor demands to be something other than those brown people who mulch our trees.
I don’t understand. With everybody taking the day off work, then shouldn’t ER rates have skyrocketed today?
Heres another angle to this: the US is the only G8 country that is showing any real population gain–growing by 1.1% per year.
Though, that is not exactly true because Canada’s populations is growing just about as fast as ours, 1%; but majority the of their increase comes from immigration. Our on the other hand . . .
Here, natural increases are just slightly ahead of our net international migration (both legal and illegal) as a factor in this growth–just slightly: Natural increases, +.58%; migration increases,+.52%
The US is the only G8 that has a fertility rate at the replacement level of 2.1 children per woman.
“Old Europe”, is facing huge, huge problems because of its population contraction (baby bust) Germany is practically paying people to have babies.
You can see where I am going with this.
“Wow hold on, don’t just blame the “evil corporations”. We the consumers (just like the budding energy crisis) we have to pony up to our share of the responsibility.”
You are absolutely right. This is a point that people overlook (myself included). I wonder what impact it would have if all the people who favored legal immigration stoped buying products produced by illegal labor as a protest.
There’s a pretty big difference in growth between 1% and 1.1%. It may not seem like much, but over the course of a generation or two, that’s a difference of a whole lot of people beyond what my late-night math skills will allow my to calculate. :)
No the ER rates shouldn’t have skyrocketed, because everyone was at the big party (aka the immigration rallies).
Jon Sheridan wrote:
First it’s “He” that’s TrvlnMn not wMn.
Actually I’m pretty guilty of convience shopping. I’m going to buy the tomato from the stand thats closest to me. If it’s only a 4 cent difference, that’s not one that is large enough to offset the cost of the gas that would be required to drive to whichever was cheaper.
As for the “those brown people who…” you’re the one perpetuating that (racist?) stereotype not me. Illegal’s aren’t all “farm workers” (who in California have a *very* strong Union) or “gardeners” (and I know more than a few legal citizens who work in that business).
And I don’t understand how “the US has been buying up housing stock like mad,” has anything to do with this argument. I don’t know any developers that are passing on their savings to their buyers because they were able to use illegals.
Further with very few exceptions (rental cars and/or plane tix for example) If I can’t pay cash for it I don’t buy it, and I do my own yard work.
In my opinion the issue is about “Does the U.S. have a right to enforce their laws and their borders?” and “how business benefits to the detriment of the worker by illegal imigration.”
But who goes to a party when they’re sick? It just doesn’t make any sense.
The thing is most E.R. visits by people who can’t afford to have a family doctor are visits that “can wait.” They aren’t truely emergencies.
Remember the comments people made a while back about the living wage? How not having a living wage tosses a lot back onto public services? And we (the taxpayers) all end up paying for the fact a business isn’t paying a living wage (because more people who don’t get paid a living wage wind up using said public social type services)? That applies in this situation as well.
You guys are just pathetic. Moaning about all of the tax dollars you pay. Its just BS to suggest that low wage people do not pay taxes, they do. Higher wage people get dirt cheap products and services because one hell of a lot of people are working in jobs that pay crap wages and have no health care benefits.
We all pay one way or the other. Poor people pay a higher price. For the most part they work their butts off for the crap wages they get.
What we are looking at is just this generation’s version of the civil rights movement coming of age. African Americans were held down for generations. They are still coming out of that long period of oppression. When you get the crap beat out of you, it takes time to get over it.
Today’s world moves faster and learns the lessons of generations before it much more easily. Communication and education are enemies of inequity. In the United States, we’ve looked the other way for a long time. We’ve know Latinos have been providing labor for wages the rest of us would never agree to. Their cheap labor has made us more wealthy. We all have known it and we all looked the other way….we had other priorities (sound familiar?).
For the additional wealth, we have been willing to settle for a sub-class of workers. This flys right in the face of who we claim to be as a people. When the great American sub-class starts speaking up – what do we hear? Ouch, my wallet hurts! This is crap.
Latinos are every bit as worthy as our immigrant ancestor’s were. Every immigrant wave has benefited the United States. Every immigrant wave brought with it a criminal element. It is the numb skull policies that drive an illegal sub class underground that is the biggest friend of the criminals that come with them.
Wake up. Remember who you think you are. If you really love your American heritage, you may want to begin applying it.
Waldo
Canada has about a .10% more immigration per year than the we do, but they aint making as many babies as we are . . . I mean it is Canada after all and we must have stronger semen here.
Plus their population is so much smaller than ours anyway . . .ahhh,math, who cares.
TrvinMn
“I don’t know any developers that are passing on their savings to their buyers because they were able to use illegals”
Thats silly, first of all it is the profit margins that makes some of these developments possible in the first place (because of their extraordinary start-up costs), . . . also, it is like saying Walmart doesn’t pass on the savings of outsourcing.
Just because I was mistaken in making a generalization about someone who I don’t know; your particular buying habits to do not negate a trend in consumer habits. And the fact that this trend has helped create our current economy, with all its benefits and draw backs.
As far as racist stereotypes, I suppose I have to give people the benefit of the doubt here, but a lot of people who seem to claim security as their main concern also seem to be in the habit of making a lot of racist stereotypes.
You know saying things like Islam is a religion of violence, or use the term welfare queen, things like that. My point is a lot of these people where content when the immigrants where silent and in the background, but now . . .
Your point about security might be valid, but it has been muddy by the people who I have heard use it the most.
Also, I don’t think any of the foreign terrorist who have actually attacked us have entered the US illegally via the US/ Mexican border(I could be wrong) and doesn’t mean it wont happen in the future . . .
Now, I know for certain some have entered via Canada. Seems like to me it would be just as easy to drive an SUV, with an atomic bomb in the back, across all those miles of unguarded wilderness.
Where are the calls to put a fence on the US/Canadian border?
Where you make valid points, are about the wage issues and the health care issues (though, i doubt all this talk of the ER, it ether didn’t happen or it was a coincidence or had do with less traffic accidents, because traffic in LA was so light today).
Anyway, before I go to bed I saw a study in the NYTimes about how disproportionately competition from immigrant labor affected African-American’s wages.
Also, are you a supporter of the living wage? Are you a supporter of Nationalized Health Insurance? Strong Unions? Just asking, because it seems like you would be.
“What we are looking at is just this generation’s version of the civil rights movement coming of age. African Americans were held down for generations. They are still coming out of that long period of oppression. When you get the crap beat out of you, it takes time to get over it. ”
As a black American I’m offended by your comparison. It is wrong to say that this debate is the same as people being sprayed with water hoses, hung, killed, and terrorized because they wanted the same rights as all other American CITIZENS. No one here is saying that we should outlaw immigration. People just want the laws to be followed. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, in fact you are the only one to mention it. This is not to say that there arent some people in the country who automatically think “Mexicans” when you say illegal alien. Futher, I would like to say that there is a BIG difference between an illegal alien (illegal immigrant is an oxymoron because an immigrant is legal) and an immigrant. The uproar is mostly about the fact that thousands, perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands, of people coming into our contry ILLEGALLY each year and its about the average American who works in construction or some form of contracting who can’t get paid more than 6 dollars an hour. If you think the only jobs that are being taken are the ones that “Americans wont do” then you are out of touch with reality. If normal economic forces were working then employers would have have to raise wages to the point where Americans will do the job.
Everyone respects those IMMIGRANTS who went through the long process of naturalization. Again you should note the difference between an immigrant and an illegal alien. There is a big difference and it is an isult to all of the legal immigrants when people smudge the two together.
Greg, I believe TrvMn is saying immigrants hurt native poor people.
Which there are lots of respectable studies to back him up: they create downward pressure on wages, it only makes sense (and notice there are not a lot of old line civil rights activists running out into the streets in solidarity with the latino protesters)
He is also using the arguments that Living Wage activists use: That companies get away with paying their employees crap wages, because they know the tax payers will pick up the difference.
I personally don’t agree with his solution to the problem, but I don’t really know what to think!
You make a strong argument, but there are also people who have to compete directly with illegal immigrant labors, who are none to happy with the resulting lower wages.
I have written way too much tonight! Goodnight.
Ok, just one more point in response to UVA08
Ok maybe two . . . African Americans are the group of “natives” that are most affected by the wage pressures from immigrants. Generalization: they seem to be agnostic to hostile on this issue.
But his points about legal vs illegal . . . historically these have been very fluid and arbitrary concepts in the US. Think about when the first immigration laws where put into place and who they where meant to stop from getting into this country. . . I believe the Latino community sees a lot of hypocrisy in relation to these concepts.
I really need to get to bed. I feel like I have a right wing devil and a left wing angle (and vise versa) dukeing it out in my head.
Greg Kane wrote:
No one here is moaning about our tax dollars. No one here has said that low wage people don’t pay taxes. That’s all coming from you.
Hey, no one’s disagreeing with you there. And the reason people are working in jobs that pay crap wages and have no health care benefits is because illegal immigration helps suppress job wages.
Absolutely. No disagreement here. The fact their wages are as you say, “crap” is because an employer can always use the arguement that “theres someone who will do your job for cheaper than you will” (an illegal).
Bullshit. This is nothing of the sort. This is about the question, “Does the United States have the right to enforce and protect it’s Borders?” and “Should business benefit to the detriment of the worker, by using illegal workers?”
Supporters of illegal immigration say, “No the U.S. doesn’t have the right to defend it’s borders, and business should be able to benefit by using illegal workers.” I say, “Yes the U.S. does have a right to defend it’s borders, and no business shouldn’t be able to benefit by using illegal labor. That’s one of the reason’s we *have* labor laws in this country.”
Speak for yourself. I’m no more wealthy today than I was 15 years ago, and I’ve never looked the other way nor benefited from illegal labor.
You’re attacking the wrong person here. For the additional wealth “business” has been willing to settle for a subclass of workers. Not the average U.S. citizen here legally. Illegal labor has always been used against the working person to keep the average wage low. The workers most affected by illegal labor do not have a political voice you give them credit for.
In fact it is you who are bluring the lines and confusing who is making what arguement. It is business that want’s the illegal labor opportunities not the average american.
Absolutely, no one disagrees with you on that point. However there is a “process” that needs to be adhered too. Simply coming here in violation of our laws is not acceptable.
What does that have to do with this discussion? Answer- absolutely nothing!
Being an American and loving ones heritage as a citizen doesn’t mean laying down to every foreign country that thinks we owe it something, and doing so to the detriment of our own country.
Jon Sheridan wrote:
I agree entirely with those points. The Canadian border is just as equally ignored with regards to security incursions. And the reason the Southern Border gets so much attention is just as much a financial one. Their poor compete with our poor. Which is inevitiably to the detriment of all citizens of the U.S.
You asked: Also, are you a supporter of the living wage? Are you a supporter of Nationalized Health Insurance? Strong Unions?
Yes I am a supporter of the living wage. When Santa Monica California adopted it, there was no fall out from it. No businesses closed for having to pay a 10 dollar per hour wage.
As for Nationalized Health Insurance… I think it’s only sensible to be able to provide some basic minimum amount of health care to our citizens. How that is best to be done, I am not sure. I myself have experienced periods where due to circumstance I have been without health insurance.
As for the Union question.. I’m less likely to have anything nice to say about those. Unions are good for their historical accomplishments with regards to the labor movement. However in my personal experience.. more often than not.. When a Union was involved I was not able to get a job. Not because I was not qualified, but because I did not have the right connections. If I did have the right connections, my life may have been much different than it is today.
And yes.. I am saying illegal immigrants do hurt the legal immigrants and U.S. poor.
In my opinion the living wage argument and the illegal immigrant issue are very similar if not one in the same. They both have to do with an employer not paying (or not wanting to pay) an employee enough where he or she is able to live at a standard above the poverty line. And with each addtional illegal immigrant the amount of people below that poverty line (citizen and non-citizen) increase, and they are at least equally citizens as non-citizens.
I agree with Waldo this issue is complex. It seems to me that immigrants are doing exactly what any of us would do — seek opportunity. Immigrants are streaming across our southern borders because they can easily find work. Anyone who is concerned about this should be calling for the “criminalization” of employers who hire in violation of existing employment laws and the US government to enforce those same laws. This is not about building fences around our southern border; it’s about being honest about how low-wage immigrant labor has become a bedrock of our economy.
Every illegal alien hurts those who come to our country legally. Let’s cut the crap (Greg) and call a spade a spade. It’s not a “latino” thing, as you insinuate; it’s a question of justice. Cracking down on illegal immigration is not even remotely like the Civil Rights movement. The vast majority of Americans embrace immigration (the legal kind), and open their hearts and wallets to new arrivals from all over the world.
Illegal immigrants absolutely help keep many prices down because they’ll work for lower wages. That said, anyone who believes the worn-out mantra of “they do the work that Americans simply won’t do” is in dire need of a remedial economic education. If every illegal worker was deported today, do you really think that tomatoes wouldn’t be picked or lawns wouldn’t be cut? Construction, chicken processing and road repair would simply grind to a halt, huh?
…
Waldo, spend an evening or two at UVA’s ER. You’ll see exactly what Trvlnmn is talking about. This is a long-standing problem of state-supported hospital emergency rooms — serving as primary care physician for the indigent.
Complex, very complex.
TrvinMn,
I think we would have to be honest with ourselves and examine the fact that the Us/Canadian border doesn’t get as much attention (though it has been a portal for terrorists, so far, Mexico hasn’t) We have to be honest and admit this could be simply because of race. Middle easterners are brown, indigenous Mexicans are brown.
They all classify as “the other”. People in this country feel “attacked” by both groups. Like, one guy on the radio this morning, “they are taking over the country without firing a bullet.
How do we find where the issues of race run into issues of security and economics, or when they are proxies for one another?
The economic issues are a real concern . . . But I just think they are just a minor factor compounding the current economic situation (concerning poverty), they don’t create it.
I am sure my Irish and German greatgreatgrand parents caused all sorts of problems for the natives, but their immigration in the end made our country stronger.
Of course that doesn’t make the pain that they create any less for the people who have to compete against them.
Like I said before the concept of illegal and legal immigration have been very flexible historically.
If the majority liked the way the immigrates look they, the often look the other way if they didn’t come in through official channels. (official channels, by the way that are now bottlenecked because of small budgets in relation to the demand on the system)
Also, historically this issue only gets hot in a tight job market, or bad economy.
So the question is did our ancestors come here legally? How do we untangle the illegals from the legals: separate children from parents, wives from husbands? How do we improve the system for legal immigration, is it broken?
Also, in the end does this wave of migration make our country stronger? In my response above I note that our population growth would be cut in half without the current migration trends.
As a country we are avoiding the looming welfare and economic problems (retirees live longer and less people to pay for them), that others are facing because we have a small increase in population. I have often thought, Social Security crisis, why? Just wait for all those new immigrant payroll taxes to start rolling in.
Do the current burdens off set the possibly saving us from a baby bust?
I am glad that I am not in public office.
I.Publius,
I believe you are the one who is in dire need of a remedial economic education.
If not, are you arguing for a living wage then? Its not a question of if the jobs will be done, but if we can afford the products that are created by higher wage workers.
This is why I say we (you and I) are responsible for this, because we have created the demand, and they have filled this demand; remedial economics, bub.
We created it, we used them, and now we can’t just throw them away.
This is why I say we (you and I) are responsible for this, because we have created the demand, and they have filled this demand; remedial economics, bub.
We created it, we used them, and now we can’t just throw them away.
“immigration (the legal kind)”, do you understand the issues that surrounding this? Its like zoning, which has historically been used to push “undesirables” out of view.
Also, Mr. Moral values, would you turn away the indigent? Didn’t Jesus say something about that?
And I believe it is not just state sponsored hospitals, I believe it is a law that requires hospitals to provided emergency care no-mater what. The Hospitals absorb that cost and pass it on to the consumers who can pay. It is one of the arguments for nationalized health insurance. You know, if we want to consider ourselves a Christian nation, you know, protecting those least among us and all that stuff.
I’ve spent more evenings than I care for at UVa’s ER. What I don’t understand is why less people would be in the ER yesterday. It’s not an important point, it’s just a baffling one.
I’d like to see how all of you who shop to get the cheapest prices on everyday products would react if the day actually came when illegal aliens could no longer work here. Your dirt cheap prices would be gone forever.
I personally think it would be awesome if employers had no choice but to pay everyone a minimum wage, preferably a living wage. That those who employ illegal aliens have gotten away with paying them dirt wages for so long is a disgrace.
Of course, if we lost our cheap labor, guess what else we would lose? You don’t think American companies are actually going to pay farmworkers and such a minimum wage, do you? Instead production would just be outsourced to countries where cheap labor was still available. It is the American way – get it cheap no matter what the cost. Sigh.
Oh, and regarding how to achieve this “illegal alien-free” status? Building a fence is a waste of time and money: folks have been successfully finding ways around barriers like that for centuries. Instead you dry up the demand. Simple economics: no demand, supply dries up.
Did someone here have this idea or did I see it elsewhere? Charge companies who employ illegal aliens a penalty, like say, $50,000. Per illegal alien employed. Watch how fast employers stop hiring illegal aliens. Since most folks who come here illegally do so to find work, why would they bother if no one here will hire them? Yes, a simple, elegant, and low cost solution, all of which makes it unlikely to be implemented.
I’d assume that the emptiness of the ER might have to do with this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/29/nyregion/29fear.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
As for my views on the issue of immigration:
It doesn’t matter the slightest bit to me, whether someone is a US Citizen or not; they are still human beings and as citizens of the world it is our collective ethical responsibility to guarantee that everyone enjoys the same opportunities and collective benefits. I’d much rather see our nation take the initiative to ensure that all workers recieve an acceptable living wage, and to live up to our 100+years-old reputation as a place of inclusion and opportunity, rather than perpetuating the racist demonizing of Mexicans and others and the continued practice of paying people far less than their labor is worth, garunteeing them an a life of poverty.
I’ve seen this attitude everywhere recently; that people who aren’t U.S. citizens are unimportant or insignificant or wortless; for instance, in any news article about an fatal accident overseas, there’s a focus on the Americans who were killed; or, more obviously, we keep very close track of how many U.S. soldiers get killed in Iraq but most people couldn’t care less how many Iraqis are killed; perhaps if we stop thinking about citizenship in terms of “Us vs. Them” and recognize our fellow human beings as having as much inherent worth as anyone else, maybe we’d be less likely to start wars where innocent people are killed, or less likely to treat honest and hardworking people like subhuman garbage because they weren’t born where you were born.
Unless your family has lived here since before 1492, you have no right to complain about immigration. Anyone who complains about ‘them’ coming here to take ‘our’ jobs and ‘our’ tax dollars is effectively complaining about their own grandparents.
(PS – Interestingly enough, although the federal government won’t allow illegal aliens to vote, in many cases it will issue them social security numbers so they can pay taxes).
Ah-ha—that does seem to explain it. Thanks for that, James.
James,
You might be a Quaker. Or a Buddhist. You get it. It’s all “us”. There is no “them”.
And there is that of God in all of us.
Mi Amigo wrote:
Madena wrote:
I agree with both of those solutions. When the social security agency sends “no match” letters for a portion of your employees they should also send that info to the INS (now ICE). The fines against employers should be increased, and the existing laws we have regarding illegal immigration should be enforced. There’s no need to change illegal immigration from a misdemeanor to a felony if the government would simply enforce the laws that are already on the books, and punish the employers who use illegal immigrant labor.
Jon Sheridan wrote:
For me it simply is *not* about race. It’s about border security and economics, regardless of which border someone happens to be crossing illegally.
Jon Sheridan wrote:
I don’t know you or your grandparents personally, but I’d imagine they came here *legally*. And I don’t have any problem with *legal* immigration.
I start to have a problem when people come here illegally in violation of our laws and then demonstrate in the streets across the country for the same rights and benefits as those who came here legally and are citizens. Look at how many people protested yesterday – now imagine the reforms that could’ve been accomplished if those demonstrations had happened in Mexico.
Jon Sheridan wrote:
Did our ancestors come here legally? If you mean all the way back to when the first settlers landed at Plymouth Rock? I’m going to say yes. At that point there was no formal government or immigration laws to be violated.
As for how do we untangle legals from the illegals? You make a good point. Because of lack of enforcement over the years there are families that exist as a “mix” of legal and illegal. With proper enforcement of the laws we have that should have never been able to occur. I honestly don’t have a good solution for that situation. I am not entirely against an “amnesty” or “legal worker program” but first and before either of those two alternatives are considered, we need to prove that we can secure our borders (north and south).
As for the arguments made about price increases of products from *not* using illegal labor- I have somewhat of a libertarian opinion there. I believe that while there might be a momentary pain in the wallet (or purse), there will also be a correction or adjustment to compensate for any increases. It’s like the gas situation now. If the cost of fuel gets much higher alternative energies will suddenly become “cost effective.”
Waldo wrote:
You’re an intelligent person so I think you do understand the points I’ve made with regards to the E.R. issues. Bottom line – in addition to every other point I’ve made regarding this specific aspect of the subject – yesterday was a supposed to be a “boycott”. The family doctor was yet one more business they boycotted. As a result true emergencies were able to be handled as opposed to just a bunch of people seeking re-assurance that the common cold they have won’t kill them too, and doing so in the E.R. because it’s free and they can’t afford a family physican.
I’ve enjoyed the discussion, but I don’t think there’s much more on this subject that I can add. It’s been fun. :)
Its not a question of if the jobs will be done, but if we can afford the products that are created by higher wage workers.
Why wouldn’t we be able to afford them? Are we not affording higher gasoline costs? Just 10 years ago gas in Central Virginia was around 90 cents a gallon for quite a while. I don’t think our incomes have tripled in that time — did everyone stop driving? No — we simply adjusted how we use gas (or some people did, at any rate). Today, facing $3 gas, I ride my bike three miles to the grocery store every day. My sons and I ride four miles to their Little League games and practices. I ride my bike to church and to school. Those changes alone have probably knocked 200 miles a month off my driving. A modest savings, but everything helps. We used to drive the 140 mile round trip to C’ville at least once a week… that’s been cut back to maybe once a month. As costs for certain items go up, people will use less of them.
Americans already enjoy the cheapest food in the world. Eliminate illegal workers, and fresh produce will cost a little more. The consequences of more expensive groceries will be both good and bad, depending on who you ask. Farmers and anyone else in the food industry will love it; others will not. Maybe higher prices will make farming profitable once again for many small farmers who are today selling their land to developers at an alarming rate.
It’s downright silly to suggest that the jobs illegal immigrants now do will simply not be performed. Americans (or legal immigrants) at the lower end of the economy will fill in the gaps, albeit at higher wages. Your Big Mac might go from $2.50 (or whatever it costs, I don’t eat fast food) to $2.75. A pair of jeans at WalMart might go from $19.95 to $22.95. Getting your lawn cut could go from $20 to $35. I think we’ll survive.
Also, Mr. Moral values, would you turn away the indigent? Didn’t Jesus say something about that?
Who said anything about turning them away? Of course we shouldn’t do that. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem. Emergency rooms are expensive, and there are MUCH cheaper and more efficient ways to deliver primary health care. This is a serious problem, and one that drives up health care costs for everyone.
I.Publius,
I am surprised, you sound a lot like a living wage advocate!
And you make a very compelling argument. And I generally would agree with you because I would love to see a economy where we do not consume as much.
As far as gas prices and the economy (up untill now): you do not consider that gas prices have risen against falling prices elsewhere and the fact of more and more readily available consumer debt. We now spend 1 dollar and 50 cents for every dollar we make.
of course these new gas prices are driving up prices across the board.
TrvlnMn,
“I don’t know you or your grandparents personally, but I’d imagine they came here *legally*. And I don’t have any problem with *legal* immigration.”
I actully do not know if they came legally or not, but here I sit.
My point is still that legal and illegal immigration has historically been fickly applied. One minute all those Italian immigrants at Ellis Island where welcomed, the next minute they where not.
My other point was that earlier mass waves of immigration must have, had to have created the exact same economic pressures, but in the end we where actually strengthened by the new populations, the ingenuity and ambition that they brought with them.
Also I have just discovered an interesting thing while wondering why anyone would go to all the trouble and danger of being illegal, when it would be a lot safer to just go through the legal channels?
We have a policy that only allows for thousands of visas for low skilled laborers!
All of the demand for low skilled labor and we only allow for this little bit . . .
Are these jobs that Americans on average do, of course!
Are there also areas in the country where it is hard or if not impossible to find Americans to do those jobs, of course!
(way, way more native born taxi drivers than foreign born, but you would never know that if you only road taxis in NYC or DC or someplace like that)
But our immigration policy is geared towards visas for high skilled individuals: there are hundreds of thousands of high skilled visas.
I can bet you that there are way more Americans in the high skilled market than there are in the low skilled market. So as a policy does our government encourage foreign competition in the markets where we want our workforce to go, and just simply ignores everything else?
Jon Sheridan wrote:
You’re probably referring to the H1B visa. Basically thought of as a genius visa, which is geared to gather intellectual talent to the U.S.
As controversial as it may be. It’s still doesn’t cause the same problems as illegal immigration does.
Open immigration as we knew it pretty much ended with the Immigration act of 1924. Which established a quota system that “did NOT” affect workers from Mexico.
I’m not sure I understand the question. However our government has across the board given away the strengths of our middle class to overseas interests. As soon as there is something the U.S. does well then there are all sorts of tax give aways to companies that decide to export those jobs.
The bottom line is that even if we decided to allow every poor person seeking a better life to immigrate to the U.S. we would see a higher social services, welfare, and public education tax burdens which someone would have to pay for, which the rich would refuse to pay for, the poor couldn’t pay for, and which the middle class would wind up shouldering the cost of.
And I’m not saying that we don’t, as a nation, benefit from immigration. But it’s legal immigration that benefits us.
We simply cannot continue to be the “pressure valve” which Mexico continues to use as a means to vent their social and economic problems. We cannot be expected to have to fix every problem, especially not those of a country that refuses to address the multitude of it’s own issues. Especially when we have plenty of the same issues we still need to fix for ourselves.
Any sort of Amnesty is a waste of time until the it’s been proven that we can enforce our borders. To invite an amnesty without dealing with the security of our borders in an effective manner, is to continue to allow illegals to come to our country – suppress the wages of our working class, and continue to invite nationals of other countries to come to the U.S. in violation of our laws (with all the problems that occur from it and us no closer to any solutions). We simply cannot be the good guy all the time.
[I’m sure I’ve not been as eloquent as I would’ve preferred to, but then it’s late- or early]
Anyway that’s my 2 cents.