USA Today published an analysis of Rep. Virgil Goode’s ties to MZM last week, in which they discover an alarming correlation between contributions to Goode from the defense contractor and major contracts being awarded to them by the House Appropriations Committee, on which Goode sits. Goode has some quibbles with that article. Tellingly, he doesn’t see fit to actually take this up with USA Today but, instead, airs his grievances with the Martinsville Bulletin.
Presumably, the Bulletin reporter, Shawn Hopkins, is a great deal less savvy than USA Today’s reporters, Matt Kelley and Jim Drinkard. (I mean nothing against Mr. Hopkins — I just think it’s a reasonable likelihood.) Or, at least, Rep. Goode may well assume that Hopkins is less savvy than the USA Today. Presumably, too, Goode figures that it doesn’t much matter what people outside of his district think about him, so he can safely provide what amounts to a one-sided response to a local paper. Goode would have been better served by simply talking to USA Today, but I assume that he refused, as he generally has in the past when papers have done stories about MZM.
I intend to rebut a few of Goode’s statements.
Goode said he talked to MZM and Martinsville officials multiple times about the center to help bring it to Martinsville, but as far as he can remember he did not, as the USA Today article states, work with state officials on the project.
He must not have much of a memory. Governor Warner’s November 2003 press release on the topic makes obvious the state’s role:
Governor Mark R. Warner today announced that MZM, Inc. has selected the City of Martinsvilles Clearview Shell Building for a database and information technology operation. Through a $4.4 million investment, the project will create 150 new jobs over three years, with an average annual salary more than double Martinsvilles prevailing wages. Virginia successfully competed with Washington, D.C. for the project. U.S. Congressman Virgil H. Goode, Jr. was instrumental in securing this project for Virginia.
[…]
Governor Warner approved a $250,000 loan from the Governors Opportunity Fund to assist the City of Martinsville with the project. The city also obtained $250,000 in Tobacco Region Opportunity Funds from the Virginia Tobacco Indemnification and Community Revitalization Commission. The Virginia Economic Development Partnership and the City of Martinsville Economic Development Department assisted MZM with its decision. The company is eligible for tax credits based on its location in an Enterprise Zone.
That’s a quarter million loan from the governor and a quarter million dollar gift from the Tobacco settlement. And help from the state’s Virginia Economic Development Partnership. I can’t see that there’s any question that Goode worked with Virginia on this.
And then there’s this bit:
“I’ve gotten contributions from tobacco interests, probably more than from (MZM),” he said.
This marks the second time that Goode has used this excuse. In June of this year, Goode told the Daily Progress the same thing. But it’s just not true — Goode’s contributions from MZM dwarf those from the whole of the tobacco industry.
Goode also responded to concerns over the telling coincidence of the timing of contributions from MZM employees en masse:
“I’ve had different fundraising events and MZM has contributed to those,” he said. He suggested the timing of the fundraising events was responsible for the timing of the contributions, which a USA Today chart showed corresponded to months when MZM received multi-million dollar defense contracts.
The fact that the contributions were all handed over at a fundraising event does nothing to explain the correlation between the timing of those contributions and the timing of federal contracts. If anything, it just digs him in deeper, given reports that employees at MZM’s Washington offices were rounded up one afternoon and forced to contributed to a candidate as he stood there to receive the money. Goode is the only candidate who has received a series of simultaneous contributions from MZM employees, and says himself that he went there to collect them personally. Goode has just unwittingly confessed to knowingly accepting forced contributions. Good job.
The San Diego Union Tribune describes the fundraiser and what led up to it:
Goode was instrumental in getting funding beginning this year for a new program awarded to MZM – the Foreign Supplier Assessment Center.
The program, created to monitor the participation of foreign companies in U.S. defense programs, is based in Martinsville, Va., which is in Goode’s district. When MZM increased its presence there, Goode touted the jobs the move would bring to the rural community in southern Virginia.
Goode grew testy in an interview when asked why he sought the provision even though the Pentagon didn’t want it.
“I’ve probably put in 30 or 35 requests over the last five or six years,” he said, including some affecting other agencies. “And the Defense Department hasn’t come by on a single one and asked me to put it in.”
In March, Wade hosted a fundraiser for Goode at MZM’s headquarters. Employees queued up to hand over more than $50,000 in contributions.
“It was just like any other fundraiser,” Goode said. “Stuff to eat, stuff to drink. They had hors d’oeuvres. I made a talk about the importance of our military and having them supplied with good information. It was a pro-defense talk.”
Asked if he thought Wade intended the contributions as a reward for Goode’s support in pushing through the Foreign Supplier Assessment Center over Pentagon objections, Goode said, “I can’t read his mind. But my support for MZM stems from the fact that they had a large presence in the district.”
I think that my favorite part of the Bulletin article would have to be this:
As for why MZM made such significant contributions to his campaign, Goode said, “you’d have to ask them,” but he said he thought it might be because company officials knew he supported the “philosophy” of the Foreign Supplier Assessment Center.
The thing is, somebody did ask MZM about that, talking to the company’s CEO. He responded that he gives big checks to Goode so that he’ll “own” him.
Asked and answered.
I have a couple more questions of my own (in addition to my existing questions) based on what Goode has said for himself in this interview:
- When did Goode seek to create the Foreign Supplier Assessment Center?
- When did MZM and Goode first communicate about establishing offices in Southside?
It’s noteworthy that USA Today has published no corrections to their article. I assume that either Rep. Goode didn’t see fit to contact them, or USA Today found that Goode’s disagreements with the content of their article were inaccurate.
There are archives. Here is the URL to the Martinsville articles on Nov. 10. Just scroll down a bit.
http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/Archive/2005/Nov'05/n111005.htm
Am I correct in thinking that the matter of the forced contributions alone is enough to put Virgil Goode in prison?
Becky — When I click on the link, I get “page not found.”
“…as far as [Goode] can remember he did not, as the USA Today article states, work with state officials on the project.”
Is he stupid, or lying?
Thank you, Becky — years of reading the Martinsville Bulletin online and I never saw the archives. And yet I’ve read archived Bulletin articles after finding them via Google. D’oh.
I’ve removed the portion of the blog entry that said that they don’t have on-line archives, and linked accordingly.
And my apologies for the URL that you pasted not working — it’s because I cleverly convert special characters to pretty ones — straight quotes become curly quotes, and straight apostrophes become curly apostrophes. That URL has an apostrophe (which they should never have, but that’s hardly your fault), so I’ve fixed it with a proper apostrophe that won’t make their server sad.
Waldo,
Again you are not letting facts get in the way of your conclusions.
1. Governor Warner never said Virgil had worked with the state. He said Virgil was instrumental in getting the company to chose Martinsville. Virgil worked with the locality and the locality worked with the state. You know better and you are better than making false insinuations.
2. You have a very narrow definition of tobacco interests and it is wrong. They include not just tobacco manufacturers, but farmers, quota holders, warehouse owners, processers and many others who owe their livelihood to tobacco. You need to do a lot better research .
Governor Warner never said Virgil had worked with the state.
At worst, he implied it extremely strongly, as is made clear in the bolded section of the quote from the governor’s press release.
You have a very narrow definition of tobacco interests and it is wrong. They include not just tobacco manufacturers, but farmers, quota holders, warehouse owners, processers and many others who owe their livelihood to tobacco
How do you know that my definition of tobacco interests is limited to manufacturers?
(It’s not.)
It includes every contribution from an individual who identifies their occupation as anything related to the tobacco industry. If you believe that’s too limited, I suggest that you take it up with the Federal Election Commission, not me.
If you would like to calculate the total income that Rep. Goode has taken in from tobacco interests and come to a conclusion that it is greater than his income from MZM, I encourage you to do so. I’m highly dubious that you can do so, not due to any lack of capabilities on your part, but because I suspect that my tally is sufficiently exhaustive as to include, if not 100%, 90% of the contributions from those connected to the tobacco industry.
Waldo, It’s a nice witch hunt, but you are far from reality on this one. Want to talk about corruption? How about the Democratic Party in Charlottesville? Got any idea why those petitions went missing back during the first try at an elected school board? Before you start worrying about other people’s problems, I’d pay attention to your problems at home, in the Charlottesville Democratic establishment. Regards, Walt
P.S. To TCW, I agree with you on this one. See you at the advance.
To Waldo, Only in liberal Charlottesville do you people get upset when 150 jobs get created in Martinsville/Henry County. Funny thing is this; I don’t recall you dragging Virgil across the coals back when he had a “D” next to his name. Hmmm. Funny isnt it?
BM, if you want to call this a “witch hunt,” take it up with the Washington Post, Boston Globe, USA Today and and San Diego Union Tribune — all of these papers have devoted significant resources to this matter. My contributions to the matter are paltry.
Your attempt at an accusation of corruption in the C’ville Democratic Party is just silly. I know nothing of missing petitions, but I do know some of the folks who ran the petition drive. There was no support for an elected school board a couple of years ago, and they didn’t even get close to getting enough signatures. I’ve never heard the slightest suggestion of any sort of corruption in the party. If you’ve got something to back it up, how about you do so, ideally under your own name?
I’m particularly pissed about you saying that I’d get upset about jobs being created in Henry County. That’s a stupid rejoinder, and you know it. There’s really no point in rebutting it.
How would you know if I was “dragging Virgil across the coals when he had a ‘D’ next to his name?” You were a schoolboy. I wasn’t blogging about politics. I certainly wasn’t paying any attention to Congressional elections.
You’re a smart kid. You can make significant contributions to Virginia politics. This and your other recent actions are beneath you, or so I would like to continue to think. You think you would do well to take a deep post-election breath and consider why you’re interested in politics.
He responded that he gives big checks to Goode so that he’ll “own” him.
Gotta love how you take uncorroborated hearsay and repeat it as a factual quote. Nice.
You’re a smart kid. You can make significant contributions to Virginia politics. This and your other recent actions are beneath you, or so I would like to continue to think. You think you would do well to take a deep post-election breath and consider why you’re interested in politics.
There are more than a few people who would say the same thing to you, son. Word for word.
Gotta love how you take uncorroborated hearsay and repeat it as a factual quote. Nice.
If you have a problem with the reporting of the San Diego Union Tribune, you should take it up with them.
Rep. Duke Cunningham had a problem with their reporting of this story. But, then, he’ll be in jail before long, thanks to the reporting in question, so the track record is looking pretty good.
There are more than a few people who would say the same thing to you, son. Word for word.
IP, the two of us know each other in person — this involves matters that you have nothing to do with. Nobody’s ever accused me of the problems “Walt” has going on. But, then, the strength of your convictions are insufficient for you to put your name behind them, too, so you do have that in common.
The editors of the Union Tribune apparently know the difference between an alleged quote, repeated second-hand by an anonymous employee, and an actual, verifiable quote from the speaker himself… a distinction which apparently escapes you, given the way you reported it above.
Man, what would be totally cool would be if there was some way that I could have connected that quote back to its original source. Some way that I could have shown people both the quote from the newspaper, and some way that I could show them the whole article. That way, they could judge for themselves.
That technology will never come along, though.
Here we see “IP Freely” warmly steaming up the place.
Ahh the master of yellow snow!
You can always tell when he’s about, the acrid scent of asparagus and coffee abounds.
I see the Attack the Messenger Clones are working overtime. Why don’t they ever debate the merits of their argument instead of attacking the bearers of bad news? Possibly because that is a losing proposition. Maybe someone should ask Mr. Kilgore how his attack on liberal rags like the Washington Post and Richmond Times Dispatch for calling him on his lies went over? Lead balloon, you say. What next? Honesty? Principles? Accountability? Mneh. Let’s attack some more news villages with our blogensteins.
Messenger-attacking is, sadly, a new trend in Virginia blogging. It’s quite rare between bloggers, but some commenters are doing so with increasing desperation. It’s generally, though not always, done by people who are not capable of rebutting the argument itself.
Rebutting an argument is called for when a legitimate argument is made.
You intentionally misrepresent unsubstantiated hearsay as a factual quote, and attempt to defend the practice by linking to the reputable newspaper that cites the supposed quote correctly? Are you serious?
Mitch Wade is quite obviously the worst kind of government contractor. His dealings with Duke Cunningham are enough to prove that. Your error lies in the following illogical progression:
1 – Mitch Wade made illegal gifts to Duke Cunningham (overpaying for his house, rent free housing on the luxury yacht). Both Wade and Cunningham will very likely face criminal charges, as well they should.
2 – Mitch Wade made contributions to Virgil Goode, and allegedly forced his employees to do the same.
3 – Mitch Wade said that he only deals with Congressmen that he can “own.” (which he may or may not have said… a distinction correctly reported by the press, though which you attribute to him as absolutely bona fide).
4 – Since Mitch Wade contributed to and dealt with Virgil Goode, he must “own” him.
Such fantastic leaps of logic no doubt play well with the Daily Kos crowd that you’re primarily addressing. You’re throwing meat to the hungry pack, so I understand. Just don’t expect most people to agree with your conclusions… and don’t be too surprised or indignant when the press doesn’t follow it up to the degree that you hope for. There is no shortage of investigative reporters out there who would LOVE to bring down a conservative Republican. If that doesn’t happen, chalk it up to the fact that there just t’weren’t nuthin’ there to begin with.
Alternatively, perhaps Sorenson will have a logical reasoning weekend soon. That might help.
See, now that’s logic, and a discussion can fairly ensue.
The trouble is that you ignore two really important facts: The #1 recipient of MZM’s largesse is Rep. Goode, and Rep. Goode’s largest single donor is MZM.
So this is not a matter of some tenuous connection. This is a company that is facing serious charges for bribery in the case of their #2 congressman. It would be foolhardy not to investigate their #1 congressman. All signs point to trouble in the case of Rep. Goode at this point.
I’ve been neither surprised nor indignant about a lack of press followup in this matter or, in fact, many others. On the contrary, the media around the nation have been quite aggressive in this case, far moreso than I. That’s nothing I can see any reason to get upset about.
I remind you that, when I first broke this story, you wrote that only a “yellow journalist” would ever write about a connection between Rep. Goode and MZM. Dozens of stories in the nation’s top newspapers later, your track record is looking pretty bad on this matter. You can start eating that crow any time now.
Waldo,
Again you need to spend a little more time doing your research before you make satements about campaign contributions. Virgil’s contributors from tobacco interests are easily larger than those from MZM and you shoul;dn’t blame your lack of research ability on the FEC. You need to know a lot more about the 5th than Charlottesville, which is one of Al’s problems. Any person who runs and is proud he helped stop his county from having an industrial park certainly has no clue about how to bring jobs to the district.
BTW, you might want to go and look on the FEC site and research “Good Jobs Now” which was run by the democratic establishment in Charlottesville and is most noteworthy for all of the campaign violations but not votes they produced. There was a similar committee two years prior run by the same group that you might want to check out also. They had the same record of failure to file reports.
Again you need to spend a little more time doing your research before you make satements about campaign contributions. Virgil’s contributors from tobacco interests are easily larger than those from MZM and you shoul;dn’t blame your lack of research ability on the FEC.
Again, you are making an assertion for which you provide no facts. I documented all evidence that I used to support my assertion that MZM’s contributions are greater than the aggregate contributions of the tobacco industries. Where is your documentation?
I’m serious — please prove me wrong. I want the right answers, not my answers. If your evidence is nothing more than a strong belief on your part, I really don’t see any point in continuing this discussion.
BTW, you might want to go and look on the FEC site and research “Good Jobs Now” which was run by the democratic establishment in Charlottesville and is most noteworthy for all of the campaign violations but not votes they produced.
I’d love to see a single mention of “Good Jobs Now” on the FEC website because I really can’t find anything.
I’d also like to see you say something concrete about what the problem with them is, as opposed some some vague intimations of scandal.
It’s worth mentioning that I’ve never heard of this group, and know nothing about them.
Just yesterday, Waldo encouraged southsidetruth to calculate the total income that Rep. Goode has taken in from tobacco interests, so that we could determine whether it, in fact, exceeds the amount he’s taken from MZM interests. Rather than give us facts, southside truth now tells us that “Virgil’s contributors from tobacco interests are easily larger than those from MZM”.
Show me the money! Let’s have facts. How much money did Virgil Goode get from tobacco interests? Don’t try to distract us with vague references to “Al’s problems”. We’re interested in knowing about Virgil’s problem.
For ” Good Jobs Now” on the FEC site see
http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?C00382895
look also at
http://images.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?C00362921
I am sure you will recognize the names who are running it.
You may want to notice that the filing for the organization of this committee and its predecessor are the same date just two years apart. Ask those who started them why they did this ? Maybe so they would never show what they were doing during the election cycle ? Look also at what they did BEFORE they ever filed their papers. Isn’t that questionable if not illegal ?
Funny how the same group of people running both committees failed to file over and over again as required in both election cycles. Don’t you think Eric Strucko talks to Lloyd Snook ?
As far as donations go- Waldo- show me the money-no matter what you say- you have documented nothing- show me your list of tobacco interests and your total for MZM and I will gladly show you how bad your research really is- and maybe not research but just not knowing how to really identify all tobacco interests- but you should know before you make such statements. Just as you couldn’t find “Good Jobs Now” you have missed this one also.
For Duke-As far as Al’s problems go- you all know them and I certainly don’t need to reapeat them for you. Many Democrats have nicely tried to tell him not to run again and you certainly talk to them and know their concerns
As far as donations go- Waldo- show me the money-no matter what you say- you have documented nothing- show me your list of tobacco interests and your total for MZM and I will gladly show you how bad your research really is- and maybe not research but just not knowing how to really identify all tobacco interests- but you should know before you make such statements.
Fully documented, as linked to in this very blog entry.
Now it’s your turn to do your own documentation. Demonstrate that Virgil Goode has received more money from tobacco interests than MZM in the period in which he’s been receiving contributions from both.
You may want to notice that the filing for the organization of this committee and its predecessor are the same date just two years apart. Ask those who started them why they did this ? Maybe so they would never show what they were doing during the election cycle ? Look also at what they did BEFORE they ever filed their papers. Isn’t that questionable if not illegal ?
This is your scandal? That two PACs were run incompetently, though ultimately to the satisfaction of the FEC? I’m not clear on what the worst case scenario is here — what bad thing could have taken place that is demonstrated by these filings. Could you enlighten me?
Damn, Waldo, your misquoting knows no bounds. You turn “A yellow journalist will no doubt pick it up & run with it” into “only a yellow journalist’ would ever write about a connection.” And you complain about others Making Shit Up™.
I’m sure that the Goode-hating faithful just take you at your word, and don’t bother to verify that you’re telling the truth, so that strategy will usually work out just fine.
I didn’t misquote you at all. The portion in quotes is quite clearly what you said. If your intent was something other than my representation of what you said, here’s your chance to clear that up.
I must say that today has been an especially snarky one here in the blogosphere. It’s been most enjoyable.
Re: tobacco contributions
It appears that Waldo has decided that the approriate comparison between MZM contributions and tobacco contributions is on a year by year basis. While that may be the correct comparison, it’s not what Rep. Goode said.
He’s taken about $100K from MZM and about $100K from tobacco. On an aggregate level, they are almost identical.
On a more general note, I commend Rep. Goode for working hard to get businesses to Southside. Trying to draw comparisons between Goode and Cunningham, when Cunningham flipped his house and was living on an MZM yacht, is way off-base.
Waldo
You make this really too easy- first you are not going to the real source documents at the FEC but relying on Opensecrets to do your work for you. Opensecrets is a good start but in your zeal to malaign Virgil you overlooked the category- Crop Production and Basic Processing- which in the 5th is TOBACCO production and processing. I am just going to take the 2002 Cycle and you have to add at least 30.950 for that cycle. You only counted 18,600 and that is way way off.
If you would go to a source document(FEC filing) rather than Opensecrets I can identify over 30K in the first page of this filing of individual donors for 2002- but you have to know the donors and that some of their businesses are those that are almost all tobacco related to know to include that in what Virgil is talking about. Here is the document that will show you what Virgil is saying. I only did the first section and there are three more full ones and about a half of another. This include only individuals and no pacs which certainly have to be included. I would bet than if you take the time to really dig on this you will find way in excess of 75,000 for 2002 alone. But since it has been easily shown you are way off on your numbers, I’m really don’t think even you think you had the 90% of the tobacco related donations you were so sure about when you were using the 18,600 number. You missed about 75% of the money .
BTW here is the FEC site for Virgil for 2002
http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/can_ind/H6VA05068/A-E/
Despite what you said you had done before, your research was anything but exhaustive. Be a man, you and Duke, and admit you were just wrong on this one ! Your comment about taking it up with the FEC is also way off base also since it is Opensecrets that does the grouping not the FEC and it was Waldo who overlooked Crop production (farmers maybe ?) and processing)
Now that you have been shown the money, will you and Duke retract your statements ?
Since clarification is what you need, here it is:
I said that a yellow journalist will run with the story. That is quite a different thing than saying only such a journalist would write anything at all about it.
It was always to be expected that journalists like Walter Pincus would write something about Virgil and MZM. After, it’s a story (and one that lends itself to sensationalist tinkering for those so inclined). But even Pincus didn’t take the extreme leaps of illogic that you’ve been taking.
But so far I have yet to see any reputable newspaper suggest anything remotely like what’s been written here, and for good reason. The facts just don’t support your conclusions, regardless of the spin put on them.
And as for clarifying… You claimed in this post that Mitch Wade said that he gives to Goode so he can “own” him. How do you know that he said that? The Union Tribune certainly didn’t report that. Is there some other source for that quote?
See Waldo, you just overlooked all that tobacco-related program activity. I worked with a woman who smoke like a chimney and gave money to Goode, you probably forgot to list her as well.
So let’s get back to those hidden Charlottesville Democratic Pacs. In your hurry to respond, I’m sure you didn’t ask Strucko and Snook what they were doing -why they started the committees so late, why after years of failing to file they continued, why they didn’t just file it through the 5th District committee. I don’t want to make unfounded accusations like you have. These are real questions about the operations up in your neighborhood by the Democratic Party officials.
It appears that Waldo has decided that the approriate comparison between MZM contributions and tobacco contributions is on a year by year basis. While that may be the correct comparison, it’s not what Rep. Goode said.
Well, then not include the entire history of Rep. Goode’s time in elected office? If Rep. Goode were to take $90k from a single company today, he suppose he could say that he’s received more from tobacco, but he’d be comparing apples and oranges. The only reasonable comparison is in the same time period, at most during the time period in which MZM actually exited. But, as we see, even a distorted comparison shows that Goode is wrong.
He’s taken about $100K from MZM and about $100K from tobacco. On an aggregate level, they are almost identical.
Actually, he’s taken $101,176 from MZM and $93,050 from the whole of tobacco. Again, we see that a single company has contributed more to him in the past few years than the whole of an industry has contributed to him in the history of his time in federal office. What with 101,176 being greater than 93,050, we see that Rep. Goode’s repeated statement that he’s taken more from tobacco is simply wrong.
Opensecrets is a good start but in your zeal to malaign Virgil you overlooked the category- Crop Production and Basic Processing- which in the 5th is TOBACCO production and processing. I am just going to take the 2002 Cycle and you have to add at least 30.950 for that cycle.
You have got to be kidding me. You’re assuming that the entire of the crop production and processing industry consists of tobacco. That’s ridiculous. Unless you’re prepared to demonstrate that tobacco interests have improperly been included in that category, rather than the “tobacco” category, don’t waste my time. You may need to look into changing your pseudonym.
So let’s get back to those hidden Charlottesville Democratic Pacs. In your hurry to respond, I’m sure you didn’t ask Strucko and Snook what they were doing -why they started the committees so late, why after years of failing to file they continued, why they didn’t just file it through the 5th District committee.
I don’t understand why I’d ask. The answers are obvious: “We didn’t get around to it for a while, we intended to do something with it, but never got around to it, and the Fifth District committee was totally dysfunctional until it was overhauled this summer, so there was no point in working with them.”
Again, I ask what worst-case scenario you envision that you feel warrants investigation. Is there some inconsistency in the filings that has escaped notice of the FEC? Does this tie into some known campaign finance scandal that you think is further explained by this PAC?
I can’t see why I’d spend any time on this without an understanding of what I’m looking for. Perhaps you have some of that good ol’ fashioned “southside truth” that you could provide?
I said that a yellow journalist will run with the story. That is quite a different thing than saying only such a journalist would write anything at all about it.
That’s a pretty silly thing to say. Were you making a psychic prediction? Why not say about every story that “a” yellow journalist may run with it? That’s crazy talk.
There can’t be any question that what you meant was that only journalists of ill repute would address this story. And you were clearly wrong.
But so far I have yet to see any reputable newspaper suggest anything remotely like what’s been written here, and for good reason. The facts just don’t support your conclusions, regardless of the spin put on them.
Is that so? Please share with the rest of the class what conclusions I’ve made that aren’t “anything remotely like” what’s been reported. What disreputable newspapers have you seen report those conclusions?
You claimed in this post that Mitch Wade said that he gives to Goode so he can “own” him. How do you know that he said that? The Union Tribune certainly didn’t report that. Is there some other source for that quote?
The Union Tribune reported that’s why Mitchell Wade gives to candidates. Goode is a candidate to whom he’s given. This isn’t hard.
Waldo:
Thanks for bringing this thread to my attention.
First, let me say that I know Eric Strucko, and he and I do talk a few times a year about things ranging from politics to baseball. That’s about it.
If folks think that the fact that he formed a committee on October 20, 2000, and I formed a different committee on October 20, 2002, is proof of a conspiracy, then they’ve been smoking some funny mushrooms.
In essence, “Good Jobs Now” functioned as a buying group for the local Democratic Committees to buy yard signs in quantity. Under the federal rules as they existed at that time (I think they are the same now), local committees could spend up to $1,000 on “exempt” activities — passing out campaign materials — provided that no paid employee of the Committee was involved. A number of committees put in $1,000, and other committees put in less, to allow that to happen. It was all legal. In fact, I told Virgil what the deal was at the time. If the Fifth District Committee had been a “federal” political committee, it would have been vastly preferable to have done what we did using such a committee. However, it was not, and there was no way to make it one on short notice. Hence our new organization.
From the beginning, “Good Jobs Now” was plagued by mail troubles. Some of it was that all mail service to Washington D.C. was delayed because of anthrax scares — some of the letters sent by them to us acknowledge as much, and they seemed to basically discourage us from even trying to send them things. However, I did not want to spend $10 on a FedEx or UPS delivery, so I would send things anyway. Occasionally, when they fussed, I sent them a report, or whatever it was they wanted, by FedEx just so that I would know it got there. We also — as some of the documents disclose — would have delays of weeks getting anything from Washington if they had a question. Some of the mail that they sent us came back (as I discussed with them by telephone once) when our substitute mailman did not realize that “Good Jobs Now” mail was supposed to come to my business address. To avoid some of this, I tried to use the on-line system, but that didn’t work terribly well either for me.
I would have been delighted if someone other than me had been responsible for filling out the paperwork. That has not ever been my strong suit. But all of the money was properly accounted for, it all came from legal sources and it all went to legal places.
Can MZM say the same?
Lloyd Snook
Waldo
Now my respect for your intelectual honesty has really gone down. Rather than admit the obvious mistake you made, you try to spin your way out of it. You did not use FEC designations to come to your bad assmuptions before but Open secrets. You seem to refuse to go to the real documentation at the FEC when all you have to do is click and go there. If you did so, and knew some of the people involved, you would quickly see that Tobacco production and processing is what category Opensecrets assignd these donations to. I won’t do all of your work for you but there are ways to tell the primary crop by each donor who lists themselves as a farmer.
You do bloggers a great disservice when you will not go do fifteen minutes of work that you know blows away your entire set of statements. Blogs have built themselves up by being a good source document and now you are tearing that image down. I don’t think any other well known blog in Virginia will respect you for failing to admit your mistake.
I showed you the money, now show me your honesty. Any real world reporter who reads this blog will dismiss any future missives by you if you are not willing to admit your poor and sloppy research when given the opportunity to do it corrrectly.
There can’t be any question that what you meant
Ahh… your psychic abilities come out. You know that I meant something other than what I wrote? That’s quite a talent you’ve got there.
The Union Tribune reported that’s why Mitchell Wade gives to candidates.
It did no such thing. It reported that an anonymous former employee said that about Wade. Do you really not understand the difference? It is a very important one… important to people who value accurate and honest reporting, at any rate. Maybe that doesn’t include you, I don’t know (since I don’t have your psychic talent).
southsidetruth asks me to “Be a man… and admit you were just wrong on this one!”
Where was I wrong? What did I assert? Here’s what I had to say:
“Let’s have facts. How much money did Virgil Goode get from tobacco interests? Don’t try to distract us with vague references to ‘Al’s problems’. We’re interested in knowing about Virgil’s problem.”
Oh, I get it now. I shouldn’t have asked for facts. I should have been satisfied with assertions about tobacco money exceeding MZM money without backup. And now, I should be satisfied with some cockamamie “explanation” about how everybody that’s a farmer is really part of the tobacco industry. In fact, I suppose any contribution that farmer Al Weed may have made to his own campaign ought to count as coming from the tobacco industry.
I must admit that it find it interesting to observe that, southsidetruth resorts to digging up some arcane non-functional fund-raising group to try to distract from the questions regarding Virgil Goode’s money sources. southsidetruth seems unusually interested in protecting the Congressman and I wonder if he/she would disclose the nature of his/her relationship with Virgil Goode?
You seem to refuse to go to the real documentation at the FEC when all you have to do is click and go there. If you did so, and knew some of the people involved, you would quickly see that Tobacco production and processing is what category Opensecrets assignd these donations to. I won’t do all of your work for you but there are ways to tell the primary crop by each donor who lists themselves as a farmer.
Oh, man, you’re a trip. You “won’t do all of [my] work for [me],” but you’re certain that every single blessed crop producer and processor is in the tobacco business.
You’re all wild accusations, but you’ve got nothing to back it up. You went slinging mud at Lloyd Snook, he smacked you down and you’ve got…what? That’s right — nothing.
I’m not going to waste any more time on you.
Waldo
You said” It includes every contribution from an individual who identifies their occupation as anything related to the tobacco industry. If you believe that’s too limited, I suggest that you take it up with the Federal Election Commission, not me. ”
You also said ” I’m serious — please prove me wrong. I want the right answers, not my answers.”
I thouight you truly wanted to have the truth out and I am sad that you have shown you really don’t when it doesn’t fit your goals
. I have shown you that and you continue to be hung up on what you got from Opensecrets that you are unwilling to correct yourself. You also ignore that Virgil said tobacco interests which certainly include more than just individuals and certainly includes all Pacs who are tobacco related.
You aren’t a trip to anywhere I want to go. I never said every single every crop producer and processor was tobacco-but you ignore them ALL in an intelllectually dishonest attempt to protect your very poor research. You won’t even admit your numbers just cannot be correct- you blame the FEC for the coding and your poor research and want to blame anyone but yourself. You know you are so far off base on this that no one will ever take your figures seriously in the future. I give you the source documents to get the right information and you really don’t want the truth it seems.
I did not sling mud at Snook- just asked straighforward questions. I am not going to now nor have I ever tried to add up one and one and make three out of it as you have in your attacks against Virgil. I accept Snooks comments about his failure to file as required by law.
Southside,
Because I’ve had my own spats with the Charlottesville Democratic Committee in the past, my knee-jerk reaction is to be sympathetic to what you’re trying to say. But I just don’t get it. Can you give us one specific example of a tobacco-industry-related donation that didn’t make it into Waldo’s list? Please just give us one.
You’re just saying that maybe some donations were only tagged as ‘crop producer,’ which is a fine theory but needs at least a little smidgeon of data to back it up. Until then, Waldo has gathered hard data which I haven’t seen anyone poke a hole in yet. Either show us some specific donations that he erroneously says came from MZM or show us some specific donations from tobacco interests that he left out. Until someone can do one of those 2 things, Waldo’s math stands and I have to assume that MZM is Goode’s biggest sugardaddy.
ATA- its very very simple, Virgil said tobacco interests
1. Waldo”s numbers include no monies from PACS, – If yoyu look at the explanation at Opensecrests of how they categorize monies they are only using individulas who somehow have tobacco in their name-
It is impossiblefor me or anyone else to know exactly which donations someone at Opensecrets keyed in as Tobacco.
It is possible for you, myself, or even Waldo if he really wanted the truth on this, to go to the original source document- and I have just used the 2002 report to illustrate, that there are signifigantly more monies there that Opensecrets understand or Waldo will admit to.
I ask you to click this site
http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/can_ind/H6VA05068/A-E/
Waldo only lists 18,600 for 2002
This is just the first part of the alphabet
I will do the work for you for this page-
tobacco farmers
Bill Abbott 250
Don Anderson 1000
Reginald Arrington 250
William Arrington 225
Kimberly Atkinson 3000
John Bacon 250
Betty Bailey 2500
Christie Bailey 1000
Johnothan Bailey 600
Mac Bailey1000
Mchael Bailey 1000
Walter Bass 250
W E Blalock 250
C D Bryant 600
Talmadge Burgess 250
Jack Carr 250
William Carr 250
John Carter 250
CVary Clary 250
Edwin Coleman 500
Walter Coles 500
Lucy Conner 500
Jimmy crews 250
Ed Dalton 250
Mary dodd 250
Russell East 250
daniel Edmonds 250
J T Ellington 250
Ray emerson 250
Al Epperly 900
Jamie Evans 500
Total 17,300
Tobacco warehouse owner
Bill Barker 1000
Tobacco curing product
Ben Davenport 1000
Betty Davenport 1000
Louis Davenport 500
Tobacco Insurance
J T Davis 500
Retired tobacco
Bob Burnett 250
Total 21,550 from only 1 of 5 pages of report- I just used the first page – don’t think it necessary to total all since the question I rasied was about the accuracy of Waldo’s numbers- and they are very obviously wrong.
Add Altria 4000
Brown and Williamson 1000
Lorilard Tobacco 1000
R J Reynolds 5000
Universal Leaf 500
UST 1000
Thats 12,500 for the 2002 cycle for Tobacco Pacs
Total is 33,550 and Waldo only credits 18,600- AND this is onoy a very partial listing since I only did one of the five pages of the individuals report.
The bottom line is Waldo is just wrong, he knows it, and will not admit it. That does a diservice to all bloggers. I hope he will llsten closely at the Sorenson Institute about the importance of accuracy in making statement so you are believeable in the future.
Total is 33,550 and Waldo only credits 18,600- AND this is onoy a very partial listing
I’m impressed.
You list a bunch of names and tell me that they’re somehow in the tobacco business. Now, if you had any credibility — that is, if you used your real name, and you were known as somebody who knew anything about the Fifth District — we could judge this accordingly. But when you tell me that (to pick a name at random) Kimberly Atkinson, who donated $3,000, derives the bulk of her income from tobacco, on what basis am I to judge that? Ditto for Jack Carr, Walter Coles, Jamie Evans, or anybody else on this list.
If you want to give me some basis to believe that you have any idea of what you’re talking about, as opposed to drawing names at random, we might have a basis to reevaluate these numbers. So long as you’re just listing names and assuming that I’ll trust that you have any idea of what you’re talking about, then we’ve really gotten nowhere here.
I remind you, since you seem to be conveniently ignoring this, that my numbers are from OpenSecrets, the federal version of VPAP. If you have a problem with their methodology, bring it up with them. Don’t pretend that I’ve secretly colluded with them to invent nonexistent numbers. Your “Waldo is wrong and he knows” it accusation is insulting. Calling me a liar is the best way to end a conversation very rapidly.
Your credibility, which started at 0 as an unknown anonymous poster, plummeted with Lloyd Snook’s response to your fishing expedition. Unless you’re prepared to either a) prove that you’re somebody in a position to know who these people are or b) provide a public reference of their employment, this has all been a big waste of time.
Don’t forget H. Chapman Brown of Gretna Drug. He gave $1,000 and I’m quite sure they sell cigarettes, so that makes him a “tobacco interest”. And didn’t Charles Aaron smoke a few cigarettes out behind the barn when he was a kid? So, let’s throw in his $250, while we’re at it.
Isn’t it all a bit strange to be touting how much money a candidate got from tobacco interests? Like that’s a good thing? I guess, compared to MZM’s dirty money, it probably is good. How about gambling interests? Anything there?
In any case, I’m glad to see southsidetruth was able to provide such good detail to support his claims. He must know these people very well. I wonder if he works for Virgil?
Indeed, for the record, if SST’s laundry list of names is based on his personal knowledge of these individuals, I can only be very impressed. I’ll be extremely interested to find out his relationship to Rep. Goode. It would be revealing to discover that he or his subordinates had decided to take on some random blogger, rather than the media that’s doing the bulk of the investigation into him.
I’m still waiting for I. Publius to name what wild condemnations I’ve made of Rep. Goode that have not also been reported in major newspapers.
I don’t know any of the individuals mentioned in post 47, but I can vouch for the fact that the Bailey’s of Keysville are the owners of S&M Brands, a small cigarette manufacturer.
Calling me a liar is the best way to end a conversation very rapidly.
Is this sentence a joke, or do I mistakenly believe that this whole string was started by a post called Goode lies about tobacco? How can one end a conversation by accusations of lying when the conversation is about accusations of lying? My head hurts.
Is this sentence a joke, or do I mistakenly believe that this whole string was started by a post called Goode lies about tobacco? How can one end a conversation by accusations of lying when the conversation is about accusations of lying?
I remind you that Rep. Goode is the subject of investigation (the topic of this blog entry) regarding whether he’s telling the truth about his relationship with MZM. That’s the point of all of this. He’s refused to comment when asked about this by most media outlets, so clearly the conversation has already ended between him and those investigating this.
I do not work for Virgil. I know the names because I own a tobacco farm and have gone to a number of tobacco meetings for well over ten years now. Funny how some want to malign me for bringing up the real facts.
This discussion has been about a claim that Waldo falsely made that Congressman Goode lied about the amount of his tobacco donations. Waldo did poor research, wants to hide behind every spin he can and divert attention from the fact that he did not go to the source documents and really do some work and that Waldo, despite sayinhg he really wanted to know the truth seems to want to stick by his premise even when clearly shown it is wrong.
The waste of time in this has been that I honestly started out believing that although Waldo and I disagree ,he wanted an honest discussion and that if shown where his numbers were wrong, he had the moral backbone to admit a mistake. I wasted my time in showing him how to do real research and in believing in him. I do think the Sorenson Institue lessons will be good for Waldo if he will take them and follow them.
Look at Waldo’s statements- first he said
But it’s just not true — Goode’s contributions from MZM dwarf those from the whole of the tobacco industry
remember the words” whole tobacco industry”
Then Waldo forgort about tobacco companies when he defended his statement above by saying
” It includes every contribution from an individual who identifies their occupation as anything related to the tobacco industry. If you believe that’s too limited, I suggest that you take it up with the Federal Election Commission, not me. ”
Remember the difference bewteen individual and whole tobacco industry.
Waldo also said ” I’m serious — please prove me wrong. I want the right answers, not my answers.”
Waldo either didn’t know the difference between the “whole tobacco Industry” and just those individuals who were coded as tobacco by Opensectrets or just ignored his own prior statement because he was using Opensecrets as his source documnet rather than doing the slighly hardrer work of going to the FEC site and he wanted not real numbers but ones that would fit his erroneous thesis. Goingto the FEC site would have required Waldo to do the deciding who should be included in “the whole tobacco industry” I understand that not being involved in it in any way and seldom coming into the area, Waldo would not know who to include but that is no excuse for doing bad research and trying to cover that bad reseach up.
Its very clear Waldo never went to the FEC site before making his claim,s just Opensecrets- so why should anyone take Waldo seriously. He wants his answers, not the truth, and won’t even begin to admit that he could be wrong but wants to blame it on Opensecrets or the FEC.
As for Duke, you said, “show me the money”- I have and you do not have the honesty tp admit it. It’s sad and I think you have lowered anyone’s opinion of any of your future postings. Duke- Shiow me your integrity/
southsidetruth,
I’m certainly not maligning you. In fact, I said:
“In any case, I’m glad to see southsidetruth was able to provide such good detail to support his claims. He must know these people very well. I wonder if he works for Virgil?”
That was intended to be complimentary, not disparaging. Surely, you can understand my interest in how you would have such intimate knowledge of the crop plantings of so many individuals? You just provided the detail by explaining that you’re a tobacco farmer who has, presumably, met and knows these people by attending tobacco meetings. Fair enough, I accept that.
That said, I sure wish my Congressman would be more forthcoming about his dealings with MZM.
I picked one name at random and googled it. Bill Barker, Tobacco warehouse owner and donor of $1,000 to Virgil Goode really is the owner of a tobacco warehousing business. Assuming that Mr. Barker is not in Waldo’s list of donors (I haven’t checked that much yet) then Southsidetruth is actually correct.
Southside, I do want to make a suggestion. You could have convinced people a lot sooner if you hadn’t gone flying off the handle and calling people names. What it all came down to was offering a few specific, verifiable examples of tobabcco interests that weren’t in Waldo’s list. One carefully worded post could avoided this entire battle.
That said, you are probably right in your broader assertation that Virgil’s single largest source of donations over the course of his political career is from the tobacco industry. I don’t believe that this somehow exonerates him with regard to dealings with MZM. MZM still gave him a whole hell of a lot of money – enough to be strategically significant as a donation source. He also represents MZM’s single largest investment as far as contributions are concerned. But we do need to keep the facts straight along the way and thank you for digging up this information for us.
Duke,
Have you called Virgil and asked ? I think you will find you will find out the answer to your questions much quicker by calling him than by reading blogs that start out with really bad reasoning.
ATA- as much as I would have liked to show which donations were excluded from Waldo’s calculations, it could not be done because he was using compilations from Opensecrets and no one knows what they include or exclude. No matter how many times I pointed to the original source documents, he and others refused to go and do a little math and see what was obvious. If the magic word tobacco was not in Mr Barker’s donation, then the odds are it was not picked up by Opensecrets coders who have never seen a tobacco warehouse. When I suggested what should be fairly obvious, that many if not most of the people who were lumped under crop producer and processor should be included my idea was derided and I was asked to do the impossible- show how OPensecrets had coded everything. Waldo only wanted to include those listed as tobacco so he slammed the idea.
Here was my original post about the subject- no calling names- no flying off any handle
2. You have a very narrow definition of tobacco interests and it is wrong. They include not just tobacco manufacturers, but farmers, quota holders, warehouse owners, processers and many others who owe their livelihood to tobacco. You need to do a lot better research .
It was just the facts- which in every single post from Waldo since, he has belittled and maligned my knowledge and each time I have shown more information, even down to listing individual after individual, he called me names and questioned my information. What I questioned was that Waldo’s numbers just were not correct and to any reasonable observer it is pretty clear they are not.
I appreciate your taking the time to do some original research and I might have missed on some but when looked in its totallity, the point is that Virgil told the truth, not a lie as Waldo said and he owes Virgil an apology. If Waldo had been willing to do just a little research and admit he had made a mistake, this would have been a very short conversation. I am actually sad that he didn’t because I used to consider him a good source for thoughtful observation and information but it will be some time before I could feel that way again.
Its very clear Waldo never went to the FEC site before making his claim,s just Opensecrets
Sure I did. Here’s a listing of Rep. Goode’s 2001-2 contributions. Go look at ’em. As I look at the names that you’ve listed above, I see only information like “farmer,” “self-employed,” “retired,” or the name of a business about which I could find no information at all. There’s no way to tell that these people are in the tobacco business. The FEC provided me with less information than OpenSecrets, because the latter takes the time to research what line of business that the corporations are in.
he called me names
No I didn’t. Not once.
I know the names because I own a tobacco farm and have gone to a number of tobacco meetings for well over ten years now.
You’ve got face something here, SST — all that I have to go on here is your assertion that you know all of these people personally and that the line of business that they’re in is, in fact, tobacco. You’ve also got to face that I don’t know you from Adam. You’re just somebody using a pseudonym to post on a blog. You haven’t provided a single method for anybody — me or anybody else — to verify what you’re telling me.
So, we’ve got two options here.
The first is that I will post an addendum to this blog entry that will direct people to your accounting, in which you assert that there are people who are in the tobacco business who are not included in OpenSecrets tally. I will do this not because I know that you’re right, but because, whoever you are, you’re sufficiently passionate about this that it would clearly make you feel better, and because all of this is so bloody tangential to the story about Rep. Goode and MZM that I really just don’t care very much. There’s no hypothetical reason why you couldn’t be entirely right with your tally, so why not label that possibility?
The second is that you will get in touch with me privately and let me know who you are. I have a strong suspicion that we’re acquainted and, if so, I will assume that you are being entirely truthful when you tell me that you know these people personally, and further assume that, although you haven’t provided an alternate tally, the contributions from these individuals, when combined with those from cigarette manufacturers and tobacco PACs, collectively exceed those provided by MZM. If that’s the case, I will not only correct this blog entry, but the next time that I blog about Rep. Goode’s MZM troubles, I will dedicate a portion to discussing the information that you have provided here, describing it unquestioningly as correct.
You pick.